Is this a safe place to ask a question without being flamed?

Yes, quite.

Please don’t let @0Oo derail the discussion. Yes it’s hurtful to share a painful experience and almost immediately have a poster declare we’re bigots and hilarious but we’ve heard the scolding for having ‘unapproved’ opinions and the ‘my mum agrees with me and she’s a woman so you’re all wrong’ before and it’s clear they aren’t here for a discussion.

I asked my mum if she felt vulnerable in a toilet because she was a women, and apart from asking me if I was drunk, said no. Cubicles have locked doors. She asked me if I had felt the same, and replied Never.

You're either a man and it's a sample of one, or a woman and it's a sample of two. Who cares. Polling shows you are in theI minority, women don't want your male friends in their loos, changing rooms etc.

AHH well if we are playing the I asked Mummy game then yes mine does object to men accessing women bathrooms. She is elderly, disabled and was once assaulted in a bathroom by a man. So it's 1-1.

Yes, all of this is why I have even less time for NATWALT than NAMALT. The concept of a man "being" or "living as" a woman is by definition misogynistic, whether we're talking about the stereotype of a gay man with internalised homophobia or the more common heterosexual man with paraphilias. Men have been getting off on cross-dressing for centuries - millennia, probably. Whatever their motivation, it's harmful to women.

And adding even more insult (and, frequently, more injury) for men to LARP as women.

With the icing on the shit cake when they then claim to be the most oppressed and vulnerable.

And adding even more insult (and, frequently, more injury) for men to LARP as women.

Ah a scolding, women must submit and lay down and be walked over by men. How very original.

There is nothing hateful or bigoted about females having female only spaces, services and sports that exclude all males in fact it is hateful and bigoted to want to remove that.

( Typos above, but you get the idea)

Yes. So true.

Living as a woman means (in all cultures) doing a tonne of shitwork and being exploited and used by a parasitic dominant male class. All whilst being ogled, harassed, assaulted and much more and worse.

And it's just adding insult to injury to pretend that it's anything else.

I do wonder about actual numbers of things...

We would very much like accurate statistics but attempts to do research have been consistently blocked by trans activists..

How many of those have had gender reassignment surgery?

Indications are that few of the middle aged male identifying as transgender have had gender reassignment surgery and that within that group many that have had surgery retain male genitalia however I don’t have studies to point you to.

How many women are assaulted by men presenting as men in women only spaces? vs men presenting as women? - Is there actually a significant risk? (This is not to take away someone’s right to feel uncomfortable with it!)

Those like myself who have been raped by a man who dressed in women’s clothing have almost nowhere where they can talk about it. I couldn’t face telling the police as I felt too humiliated and embarrassed by that aspect and feared I would not be believed. I would be too afraid of trans activists intimidation to state what happened to me other than anonymously.

What percentage of women and girls raped/assaulted by men presenting women do you think would make it a significant risk? And what percentage do you think is an acceptable risk?

Do you think the current inability to challenge male presenting men in women's spaces increases the risk?

I appreciate these are hard and uncomfortable questions, please give them some thought and stay around for the discussion.

There are threads on ‘This never happens’ with cases. Actual research would be better but as stated above attempts to do that research have been blocked.

In one of the few areas where statistics are available there are disturbing MoJ figures on the percentage of transwomen who are in prison for sexual offences vs the rest of the male prison population. Hopefully there’s a poster that can point you at those. These figures are now becoming distorted by the recording some of those male sex offenders as women.

And isn't it curious how "living as a woman" never seems to mean doing all the shit jobs that fall to women, taking the mental load, and cannot include the ingrained, almost subconscious caution around men, the much larger, stronger and more aggressive sex? The very idea that a man can "live as a woman" is a blatant example of his male entitlement and obliviousness.

Start with Material Girls. The strapline is 'why reality matters to feminism'.

"I guess your confusion as to my response about a 3rd space is perhaps clarified for me when I read the response about swimming spaces in a park in London (sorry can't remember the name) - this seems to be a solution that keeps women safe and respected.
1 mens only
1 women only
1 mixed"

You are talking about the ponds on Hapstead Heath
But herein lies the WHOLE rub.
TRA are refusing to respect this and have demanded access and won it to the womans ponds
Therefor men have a pond all to themselves and access to the other two.
This is patently absurd, as well as the most meanspirited selfish and stealing behaviour imaginable.
The enroachment of these bullies now means it prevents so many women using the Hampstead Ponds wether because of religion, trauma safety or personal dignity.
It took so long to get these spaces in the first place.
Its utterly shameful.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13115349/womens-rights-high-handed-undemocratic-hampstead-female-bathing-pond.html

Ironically there is an action this Sunday to reclaim the pond for women only.
Its a lovely place for a visit and the women would be delighted to see you if you went along.
They would be happy to explain all the issues

This is a great point. We don't enable people who have eating disorders just because they see themselves as heavier than they are. So why should men who think they are women be treated differently. They're basing it on the claim that gender and biological sex are different, which is just an ideology. You might as well claim that obesity can exist only in the brain as well and that if you think you're overweight, you are.

Never heard this one before thank you

Like when IW bangs on about being a REAL WOMAN because she has a piece of paper to say so. I've never in my 41 years said I'm a woman a real woman and here's my certificate to prove it.

I think the biggest issues for me is the ideas about 'kind' and 'unkind'. I am a generally 'kind' person, but have some beliefs that would be considered not just 'unkind', but hateful by many people.

The biggest of which is that you cannot change sex and gender is a social construct, based on stereotypes. I am very pro challenging gender stereotypes and believe that you should be able to dress however you like and have whatever hobbies you like, regardless of your sex.

I think there are some extremely 'unkind' people that have caused harm to children by prescribing puberty blockers and putting them on a path towards surgical removal of healthy body parts that is embarrassing and awkward for those children to get out if doubts arise.

It is very worrying (yet totally unsurprising) that trans lobby, started by mainly adult males (transwomen) has swept up so many young girls, many of whom are autistic. Unfortunately it can be shit to be a teenage girl and incredibly awkward to be autistic on top of that. Imagine if you had the option of identifying out of that.

I suspect there is probably a correlation between the trans lobby and the explosion of online porn and celebration of 'kinks'. Again, the victims of which are largely teenage girls. Erosion of sexual boundaries is everywhere in youth culture, anime, kids YouTube, sex education in schools. It is not kind or safe. Parents with valid concerns are cast as Mary Whitehouse figures or like homophobes.

The equivalence of being gender critical with being homophobic and the trans lobby with the fight for gay rights is another area of concern.

As the parent of a gay, autistic teenage daughter (and 2 sons). I am so concerned about the explosion of trans identities in her friendship group. Due to the prevailing wind, I cannot even speak freely with my DC. It is a tightrope walk of not alienating them and pushing them towards 'well meaning' and 'kind' people that are all too ready to help.

I think there are far too many people with 'no skin in the game' that mean well, that want to be inclusive, but who are throwing, mainly, young girls under the bus.

As for "trans ally". Why do men need women as allies? They have enough social capital to fight their own battles and to date have been very effective at dismantling women's rights.

It is certainly a mystery to me.

It's so bloody frustrating to see women act like turkeys voting for Christmas.

It is.

The book "Trans" is a good straightforward run through of the issues.

I like "Material Girls" but it is possibly a tad too abstract or academic to use as a primer if you're not already a fan of that type of book.

OP if you are referring to the Hampstead Heath ponds, it might be worth googling "Man Friday"...

There was a brilliant post a few years ago re: a thought experiment.

I'll do my best to do it justice.

A workplace sets of bathroom facilities - multiple closed cubicles with a hand basin.

They are identical in every way.

One has women in the door. The other men.

Why does a trans woman need to use the one with the label women on it?

What happens if the women decide to appropriate the male facilities and in response the men use the facilities labelled for women?

Would the trans women use the male or female toilets?

I think we know the answer.

It's not about the space/label or facilities. It's about using female single sex spaces for validation and thrills. They want to be where the women are. Where they know it's not wanted.

Just look online for the massive number of posts about subversive behaviours in female toilets.

I have a fairly simple take on it. I absolutely support someone's right to be a trans woman.

But they are indeed a trans woman and not a biological woman and as such there are certain spaces and opportunities which are not appropriate (and I think in reality most, certainly of the long term transwomen, accept this which is why they have lived harmoniously for decades).

Dress as you please, call yourself what you please but don't expect me to believe that you are now no longer at risk of male cancers because you are miraculously female. It's wrong for this to apply on documents relating to health because however much I might wish not to be heading into menopause, biology says differently.

Being a trans ally shouldn't mean women doing all of the moving over. It should also include men being expected to be more tolerant.

I also think denying the journey you have been on is unhelpful to anyone else experiencing this.

I don't agree that affirm, affirm, affirm is the correct way to support anyone questioning their gender. I think the idea of 'being born in the wrong body' is deeply offensive to disabled people and unhelpful. For some, perhaps living as the opposite sex is the right answer but I don't think it should be the automatic answer, especially when there are other mental health issues of underlying factors like autism at play.

TRAs are awful and do not represent the older type of transexual you describe.

In response to "living as a woman"....

I've worked with (3) an house shared (1) with a number of trans women.

In my experience their idea of "living as a woman" is incredibly superficial and only relates to overt stereotypes about dress, make up, mannerisms and access to single sex spaces.

Their "lady brains" interestingly don't seem to have been socialised to accept the domestic load, care burdens or employment/pay disadvantages faced by women. Their behaviours once "out" remained intrinsically male in respect of their place in society and the expectations picking and choosing which elements of being female/male they appropriated in any given situation.

Nor had they any sense of womanhood in the sense of appreciation for why single sex spaces were needed.

If a man is so attuned to womanhood as to be a woman then they would argue that single sex space should be protected surely....

The fact they don't demonstrates the fact that however they present, their male entitlement is paramount.

The "my lovely trans friend" is just a NAMALT variant.

All the men in my life are kind and compassionate. They pose no risk to women but they understand why single sex spaces are important and respect that.

Is it not a red flag re: the men who don't? Gender identity is just camouflage/a Trojan horse imho to steamroller women's rights.

As for "trans ally". Why do men need women as allies? They have enough social capital to fight their own battles and to date have been very effective at dismantling women's rights.

It's so bloody frustrating to see women act like turkeys voting for Christmas. But they do because they want to be seen as kind and progressive...because hey female socialisation...and because many women are frightened about pushing back.

Like the witch trials...sink and die = not a witch. Float and we will kill you.

There is NOTHING progressive about gender ideology. It's a great big campaign to enable men to use women and children to validate their fetishes.

Plus instant validation several times a day. Look - the sign says "Women"!