Is this a safe place to ask a question without being flamed?

> LGBTQ

Got it.

If you haven't heard of LGBTQ I think maybe you need to read round a bit.

One of the women that called Terf Talk last week was being examined and the male doctor brought in a male to chaperone and the chaperone didn't introdue themselves, stood so that the woman didn't see his face and then smirked as he left the room.

She didn't report it as she'd likely be kicked out off consultant's list and as she had a very serious long term condition, she needs the expertise of the doctor to carry on living.

It is fucking disgraceful that this is happening.

I'm sorry, I don't want to come across as annoying, but I do not know what PC, GR, or TQ mean. Can you help?

Most "trans women" do not pass. Very obviously. And it's obvious to most of us because a) it's actually extremely difficult in reality to "feminise",or I should say, de-sex, an adult male appearance beyond the superficial, which is one of the big reasons there's a push to puberty blockers in teens b) being able to correctly identify who are the males and who are the females is a cognitive skill that most people develop when babies - facial pattern recognition, for instance, is one of the first skills we learn (animals also distinguish really, really easily) Also c) most women are VERY aware of who is male and who is female and need to be for our own safety. There are also really obvious markers like gait, which you can spot at 50 paces.

It's fond fantasy to imagine otherwise, though a frequent argument by those who live by fantasy.

> But neither of us has the right to consent on behalf of other women

Yep. You are all right about this. None of us have the right to wave anybodies rights away.

You have mixed up the idea of consent and rights.

Consent can only be given willingly by someone able to do so; rights are given by government, and can clash with others rights. We, as a society cannot consent for others who are able to do so, but can challenge and question rights.

For example, if the government do say the men with the PC of GR, or with a GRC can use womens public toilets, i am entitled to challenging that right.

As for shelters, or intimate exams, then I thought that if a women requested female to exam them, then we'd get a female. I would not expect to see a male. But again how would I know if she was trans and passed. How could you know? What are going to do? Have chromosome test kits at the door?

Well you could expect men to have the capacity to respect women and boundaries. You don't seem to think very much of men with TQ identities, and that a man will always wish to seek to get his hands intimately on a non consenting woman, which is of course sexual assault. And in this sense, premeditated and malicious knowing that it's through deceit, wishing for the experience of using her body in a way that other men are denied.

And there need to be legal boundaries around this, as there are to manage other antisocial behaviours that harm others, like mugging or car theft. Shrugging and just saying you can't stop them just abandons women and enables men. While having absolutely zero expectations of them.

This.
Feminism says that a woman is any female with any feelings, characteristics, preferences, skills, feelings about her body, appearance etc.

Genderism says that a woman is a male or female person with an unspecified feeling/character etc. As is a man, incidentally, or non-binary person. There doesn't actually seem to be any way to distinguish between these people because what anyone actually means by these words is never defined, even a little bit.
(Actually some do say that a feminine person is a woman, masculine people are men etc, but clearly this has its own issues! )

@NameChangedForThisDiscussion

thank you for sharing your horrific experience with us all. You’re exactly who I’m fighting for when I say “no” to allowing men to enter women’s spaces.

So you presume the women who say they are followed whenever they need the loo are lying?

Why? because women are always liars? or because women are too stupid to observe what is going on and report it accurately? and btw, if it was a transwoman, it was indeed a man (identifying as a transwoman). That is what transwomen are.

But again how would I know if she was trans and passed.

If you ask for a female then you should not be presented with a transwoman whether they pass or not and if you are then whoever has done that is acting against the wishes of the patient and I would sue the fucking arse off them.

As far as I know you always have the choice to chose not to be examined.

Apparently there are exemptions the Equality Act that stop trans people from examining you in this situation where there are reasonable grounds that being trans could be problematic for the patient. I think wikipedia can help us here.

It’s interesting that you’re looking for a “safe space” on an anonymous forum but you also think women shouldn’t have access to male-free safe spaces in real life.

Okay, suppose the person is a transwoman who does not pass. Should I be permitted to refuse to let that person examine me?

/delete because I misread a post.

> But neither of us has the right to consent on behalf of other women

Yep. You are all right about this. None of us have the right to wave anybodies rights away.

We just watched the Womens' 400m FreeF, and the Men 400m FreeF on the tellie. The men did around 1.7m/s, and the women did around 1.6m/s. This is a big difference in elite sport.

As for shelters, or intimate exams, then I thought that if a women requested female to exam them, then we'd get a female. I would not expect to see a male. But again how would I know if she was trans and passed. How could you know? What are going to do? Have chromosome test kits at the door?

WELL SAID!

Trans is the most effective and clear, so I'd start with that.

That is really grim.

Women have been told that if they go into the ladies at work and come straight out again because a transwoman is in there, they will be disciplined for transphobia. This means that women can't even choose when they use the toilets in their workplace to try and avoid sharing with the opposite sex.

We've heard from women who have had transwomen colleagues who mysteriously seem to need the toilet whenever they do. Can you imagine how threatening it would be to be followed in every single time? The women who have reported this were warned about their transphobia, the man following them is supported by their employer to keep doing it.

How many times did you use the personal pronoun ‘l’ in that post?

It is fine to feel that either you or your mum don’t care. So you’re free to invite any person into your own home’s toilet. With respect, it’s more than being just about how you feel because there’s a danger in universalising the personal.

A phrase someone else used on another thread is a good one to think about, which is: consent is not transferable.

So you are not threatened and feel okay about men dressed as women in women’s loos. I’d probably wouldn’t feel ‘threatened’ either though I’d likely feel uncomfortable.

But neither of us has the right to consent on behalf of other women. For example, what if another woman does feel threatened? A woman who’s been sexually or physically assaulted? Or a woman from another religion walks into the women’s toilet and sees a TW washing their hands at the sink? Do they have a say? Do they get to choose to consent or not?

Hopefully you see that thread is not a cess pool of hatred but rather just posters raising these points of concern for women’s safety, dignity and privacy.

'a trans-women'

again

but in the same post 'a man'.

'a woman' in not permitted to exist even when she's a man being pretendy

And our point is it's not just about you and your personal perceptions. It is about the rights of our sex class as a whole, and how one woman who has decided "well I'm not bothered" does not get to consent for their removal on behalf of other women who are. There are very good reasons for that also, as has been explained clearly on the thread.

It is also very much not just "about toilets" as we have previously pointed out.

It's about single sex spaces and services in certain circumstances, and whether those who handwave them away or claim anyone who wishes to retain them is a "bigot" or "phobe" is actually historically or socially literate enough to understand why women fought to have them. If you think the right to single sex spaces should be dismantled, then at least give justification why beyond "I don't mind because I'm cooler than you are, you bigoted hags."

Are women who find that a man hid a spy camera in the women's loos entitled to feel vulnerable, threatened, or bothered? because they do, and when it's discovered it is treated as a crime and prosecuted.

That's just a camera, not an actual man in the loos with you, next door cubicle, no way out except past him. Knowing how many creepy men find women's toilets and the things women do in them exciting.

Any woman who doesn't feel bothered, threatened, and vulnerable when men start using the women's loos is very naive indeed - and lacking in experience of male behavior.

And if it's a known fact that some women can no longer use a women's space if it's made mixed sex, is it ok so long as a man tricks them into believing they're in a single sex space?

Those men you 'didn't notice' - is it ok that they are trying to deceive women into using a mixed sex space they would not knowingly consent to?

What about situations such as a woman needing care and examination, for example following a rape, who has asked specifically (and understandably) for a woman hcp? Is it ok for a man to go and do it knowing she hasn't consented but that he may be able to deceive her?