Is this a safe place to ask a question without being flamed?

Really? This was posted on another thread

Correction to my above post: two male boxers.

@RedToothBrush We have data that trans identifying prisoners have rates of sexually related offences higher than the general male prison population. Yet we are not permitted to talk about this because this offends law abiding trans people.

It's like that saying, "The worst thing about male violence is that it makes men look bad." We can add to this, "The worst thing about trans sexual offences is that they make trans people look bad."

Especially if the sport is a contact sport and may put the women he is competing against at greater risk

I have yet to verify the information, but it was mentioned on another thread that there's at least 1 man competing in the women's boxing at the current Olympics. If that's so, we will be incredibly lucky if that doesn't end with a woman paralysed, brain damaged or dead.

I have no idea what the article about Koubek is intended to prove, because it appears to be paywalled. But as OOo mentions his physical advantages and outrlright says he should t have played on the women's team I'm struggling to see how that can possibly be an argument in favour of men playing on women's teams.

I know this is a derail and I apologise to the OP, but I couldn't let that nonsense go, for the sake of lurkers.

There is so muddled thinking in that article it's hard to know where to start.
It sounds as if the Czech athlete was male with a male DSD. So should not have been in female competition. Do you wonder why a 13-yr-old girl was asked by a strange doctor to go to an athletics meet with his 18-yr-old daughter, also a stranger? I think the doctor knew or suspected Koubek had a DSD.

Koubek always felt different and in fact was - he would not have experienced periods, but may have had nocturnal emissions and testosterone surges. I'm happy for him that he got surgery that was right for him and found love. I also respect him for not wanting to carry on competing in women's competitions.

FYI it was gay people (predominantly men) who were sent to the concentration camps by the Nazis. Cross-dressers could apply for a card which certified them as heterosexual and protected them from arrest for homosexuality. The Nazis were cool with transvestites.

This guy was a male with a DSD. Men who claim to be women (MCW) very rarely have DSDs. In any case, MCW and men with DSDs are all men, not women and should not compete against women and girls. With virtually no training, this man trounced the women he raced against. That's male athletic performance advantage.

Sex testing is only necessary because men try to masquerade as women. If they didn't, women would not have had to undergo the humiliation of genital inspections. Sex testing using DNA from a cheek swab was standard for a time but "sex passports" were stopped in the 90s by people who wanted males with DSDs in female competition. A return to sex passports would solve all the problems.

Is it evil to check someone's age or income for means-tested benefits? Is it evil to check whether a house buyer already owns a flat for establishing eligibility for a first time buyers' assistance scheme? We check because some people cheat.

Vegetarianism is evil because Hitler was a vegetarian, right?

Never forget, the man who did one of the first 'sex change' operations got a job as a doctor in Dachau later, doing experiments on human beings. Even before 'gender' was invented, some of the people who played with ideas that later fed into it were pretty nasty and cynical.

Yes, I'm unclear what dreadful "road" we're supposedly going down here for presenting the facts relating to women, single sex spaces & services, and the attempted dismantling by some men (with the aid of supposedly "kind" women) of those spaces and legal rights, mostly under the radar, without even parliamentary scrutiny in most cases, and without the consent of or any discussion with the demographic those spaces were set up for . Not to mention questioning the largely irreversible use of puberty blockers on gender non-conforming and often same sex attracted adolescents, and questioning a doctrine which claims some men can be women if they "feel" they are based on "feminine" sex stereotypes, and women who don't agree are called bigots.

What is the end point of this "road", I wonder? I don't suppose you're trying to claim we're all "Nazis" are you?

We're not the ones doing irreversible medical experiments on children, love.

Indeed, a woman identifying as a transman would be a different issue. Though I would be as wary of a woman choosing to take large doses of testosterone as I would of one taking cocaine or alcohol in a work setting.

'Identifying as' trans is not the problem, being male is.

How many times does it have to be said that people with DSD's are not trans and how many times do those with DSD's have to ask to be left out and not used in the trans argument? Why oh why do posters like you @0Oo completely ignore the wishes of those people who have DSD's and try to use their condition to further your ideology? Do you have no respect?

People with DSD's are either male or female, DSD's are sex specific. Now leave them alone.

To misquote Inigo Montoya,
I do not think your post means what you think it means.

@0Oo

Zdeněk Koube was not trans, but a man with underdeveloped genitalia (due to a genetic defect) that caused him to be misidentified as a girl at birth. So he was competing unfairly but didn't know it, and did acknowledge it in the end. He lived and competed as his true sex in later life.

Society's been down what path before? Women having rights and equalities to men?

You're a male supremacist, love. You are arguing that the rights of women and their access and equalities should be subordinated to the self expression of men. That a male human has value and importance that a female human doesn't, and it is the birth right of a female to serve and sacrifice. (Or identify as a man.) And it's ok to you that this results in women being harmed and excluded from society and losing their resources because it's worth it for those special men.

Whatever, you do you, but you need to be honest about it.

I'm personally fine with women choosing to serve men in any way that suits them, their body and their choice. But those women can go and use the men's facilities and make the men's spaces the gender neutral ones, and stop trying to remove rights from women who do not consent.

Society has NEVER been down this path before. Gender theory and queer theory are both new inventions (around since the 70s at best) and have only leaked into the world people live in in the last 20 years.

The pharmaceutical industry has gone into the production and pushing of hormonal and other 'treatments' to back it up since their previous massively profitable product, opioids, began to be a liability.

This is a new thing, driven by an industry wanting profit, academics wanting things to write about, and a small group of very dodgy men wanting unfettered access to women and children's bodies.

Not a path that has been trodden before, anywhere.

I don't think you're getting this at all.

Could you answer this question? Do you believe that biological men should be permitted access into female only spaces?

@RedToothBrush
Thank you for this, and for your other posts. They are reasoned and clear, and really help to reset sense.

Morning,

I did give what you all wrote thought. Your stances are thought provoking, but society has been down this path before, and it did not end nicely last time.

> Is it kind or respectful of a male to demand he be included in women's sport, especially if that comes with an educational scholarship and at the expense of a woman who can't compete with his physicality. Especially if the sport is a contact sport and may put the women he is competing against at greater risk.

Initially I could agree with your opinion until I read about an athlete called Zdeněk Koube from Czechoslovakia. He was a track and field athlete who won medals and broke records in the womens high jump and the eight hundred metre. In his later years, he played for the men's rugby team RC Říčany. He was the team’s quickest member, and probably should not have played in women's earlier in his life given his physical advantages. Appartently was called intersex back then, but we would call him trans these days. He was a trans man.

Here is an article from the NewYorker about him published in June 2024:

https://www.newyorker.com/sports/sporting-scene/a-forgotten-athlete-a-nazi-official-and-the-origins-of-sex-testing-at-the-olympics

Your earlier claims and arguments in this thread all fall down.

Edit to the above due to a typo.

We also have to acknowledge in law that voyeurism is acknowledged as a crime and has certain patterns of offense where males take advantage of soft areas and exploit them. These are not trans people. They are criminals who will go to lengths to commit their crimes.

Brilliant post, Red.

My point is that everyone wants to be nice. They want to accept without question. The problem is that it's a situation where it's not necessarily being nice to uphold a lie. It can do more harm in the long run to both parties. Ultimately you can't change sex and this matters.

It matters because people retain behaviours and experiences and expectations. It matters because of physical strength and abilities. It matters because of trauma and dignity.

Is it kind or respectful of a male to walk into a female changing room with women who have religious sensitivities or may have a history of sexual abuse or being stalked and then undress in that room having never had surgery which is the case for most transwomen?

Is it kind or respectful of a male to demand he be included in women's sport, especially if that comes with an educational scholarship and at the expense of a woman who can't compete with his physicality. Especially if the sport is a contact sport and may put the women he is competing against at greater risk.

There is ultimately a point in this journey where you realise that your generousity of spirit is a one way thing and that what you are actually doing is an act of self harm which is demanded by emotional manipulation. It isnt acknowledged as this.

This is where we see the power dynamics and the socialisation of women in particular at play, in terms of being used to deferring to make demands. It's where we see issues of class emerging and high status men and women betraying and abusing lower status women in the name of inclusivity because they are protected from a particular issue and have no empathy or understanding of the lives of those outside their social bubble.

It's a journey we all go on. Never at any point does any one who go on it, become a nasty person. It's just that their empathy and understanding of who is the most vulnerable and most in need of protection shifts and they realise they've been misled and misunderstood the dynamics.

No one wants to harm anyone. This is about understanding the balance of issues and who they effect and how. And where things have been exaggerated and manipulated for material gains despite the evidence (or indeed evidence is actively suppressed in order to manipulate).

We have data that shows that cross dressing forms a pattern in serious sexual offenders. We have data that trans identifying prisoners have rates of sexually related offences higher than the general male prison population. Yet we are not permitted to talk about this because this offends law abiding trans people. Unfortunately we have to in the same way that we have to acknowledge that Islamic terrorists statistically tend to come from certain backgrounds and that ultra right wing domestic terrorism follows certain patterns too.

We understand that people who fall into those categories are law abiding citizens in the majority of cases, but we must be aware of these patterns in how we function as a society without persecuting at the same time. It's not an easy task and yes, it is problematic but it's about balancing issues and harms.

We also have to acknowledge in law that voyeurism is acknowledged as a crime and has certain patterns of offense where males take advantage of soft areas and exploit them. These are trans people. They are criminals who will go to lengths to commit their crimes. We have to offer protections that recognise this. A failure to acknowledge this is an issue and to pretend that there's no risk to self I'd is not kind. It is a wholesale dereliction of duty by those in positions of authority.

Anyone who is trans and is kind needs to understand that their need for validation can not and should not put others at risk. They are deserving of protections but this shouldn't come at a cost of harm to others. Because this is not kind.

I think there's a point where so many people who go on the journey from being totally accepting without question, feel this incredible guilt from asking questions and feel almost dirty from doing so. Because of the social pressure to 'do the right thing'. Ultimately the right thing is to not act on emotion but to seek out information dispassionately and acknowledge where there are issues which perhaps are inconvenient and don't fit the narrative. Because this is recognition of how the real world works in practice and not a naive idealistic version of what we should be doing if everyone was nice and the world was perfect. We don't live in a perfect world.

It boils down to this:

When two groups have conflicting wants

1. women wanting access to female-only spaces
2. men wanting access to female-only spaces

Why do you prioritise the wants of group 2 and so easily dismiss the wants of group 1?

I notice 0Oo doesn't seem to care about all the girls - the young lesbians, the autistic girls, the merely nonconforming girls - subjected to "treatments" that mean double mastectomies, exogenous hormones that cause uterine atrophy, early osteoporosis and early-onset dementia - but only about the men we don't want in women's single-sex spaces. Colour me shocked.

So what illness is this medical treatment, as you call it, supposed to be treating? It sounds like you're saying it is an illness to be trans, since you are calling it medical treatment to give puberty blockers to allegedly trans kids.
I call it what it is- social engineering.

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