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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is this a safe place to ask a question without being flamed?

263 replies

StrumpersPlunkett · 26/07/2024 12:43

I have a question relating to transgender issues and working through my thoughts on things but it feels like a conversation I am only allowed to have in my head.
Is this a safe place to talk it through?

OP posts:
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7
ItsFunToBeAVampire · 26/07/2024 13:25

StrumpersPlunkett · 26/07/2024 12:59

OK thanks,
so..
I feel that I am being pushed to be pro or anti trans rights. For me it is a much more nuanced discussion.
Do I feel that people with body dis-morphia should be supported and treated well? - Yes
Do I feel that all people who identify as trans are sexual predators? - no
Do I feel threatened if there is a penis in the cubicle next to me when I have a wee? - no
Do I agree with people who have been through male pubity competing in female catagories in sport? - no
Do I feel that someone I know - who has now been living as a woman longer than she ever lived as a man, should be able to use female pronouns and spaces? - Yes

How do I find a space where it is acceptable to be a trans ally without having to believe they can replace the very hard fought womens role in society/sport/politics? etc/

Do I feel that someone I know - who has now been living as a woman longer than she ever lived as a man, should be able to use female pronouns and spaces? - Yes

How does this work in practice though?
Your friend is no doubt lovely. How about the ones that aren't though? Once you let any male into female spaces, they all can come in.
Being trans is literally the thought in a person's head, how can you regulate that? It doesn't mean official diagnosis, medication, surgery. It's literally that the person thinks it and now they can go into opposite sex space, how do we deal with this?

RinklyRomaine · 26/07/2024 13:25

The phrase 'safe space' sets off alarm bells on any of these posts, for me. This is an anonymous forum with a strong feminism section - of course it's safe. Unlike actual women's spaces which are being colonised with males who think being a woman is a feeling in their heads.

The problem is what you mean by 'trans rights'? Your friend may well be absolutely saintly, but he is not a woman, and just because he is your friend, doesn't mean any other woman should have to share certain spaces with him.

Being supported and treated well is a given, but treated well means different things to different people. I don't think castrating young men is treating them well in any circumstances. I think to treat them well would be to affirm that no one is born in the wrong body and that altering the body to appease the mind over issues based on stereotypes is extreme mistreatment. I don't think insisting twaw is treating them well. People who wish to present as the opposite sex have different medical, physical and emotional needs. Pretending sex isn't immutable ignores this.

There is also a real need to understand modern identity culture. This isn't the odd gay guy in his 40's struggling very badly and respecting women's reality. Porn culture and identity politics means this movement does include an awful lot of predatory males. No one said all of them, altho any male insisting on using women's spaces IS absolutely predatory if you ask me; but pretending there aren't hundreds and hundreds of men for whom this is a humiliation / domination fetish is so naive. Expecting women to accept all of those as women because your friend is lovely is madness.

Alucard55 · 26/07/2024 13:25

Do I feel that someone I know - who has now been living as a woman longer than she ever lived as a man, should be able to use female pronouns and spaces? - Yes

How far do you take this though? Yes refer to this person as she/her if you wish but do you think it's fair that this person who is (I presume) biologically male enters women's single sex spaces when women are saying no we do not want biological men in our single sex spaces?

StrumpersPlunkett · 26/07/2024 13:24

YAY thank you! this is exactly the kind of discussion I am yearning for!
You are absolutely right - I do not have the right to consent for other women, nor would I want to and I do find it very complicated to think of someone I used to work with who had gender reassignment surgery in 1998. Should a she be allowed to use spaces reserved for women?

With regard to unacceptable behaviour I feel it should be no different to any other kind of unprofessional behaviour. There should be disciplinary measures and in my opinion under no circumstances should the majority have to change their thought processes to appease someone not behaving appropriately.

I do wonder about actual numbers of things...
How many people in the UK identify as a gender different to their birth?
How many of those have had gender reassignment surgery?
How many women are assaulted by men presenting as men in women only spaces? vs men presenting as women? - Is there actually a significant risk? (This is not to take away someones right to feel uncomfortable with it!)

How many teenagers who have gender confusion go on to identify with their birth gender?

Argh when I have tried to look at these things on line it is all from polarised perspectives.

OP posts:
AlisonDonut · 26/07/2024 13:22

Do I feel that people with body dis-morphia should be supported and treated well? - Yes
What do you mean 'supported and treated well'? Who decides what support and treatment is beneficial for them? What is the differential diagnosis for 'body dis-morphia'?

Do I feel that all people who identify as trans are sexual predators? - no
Is a male that enters female spaces not already showing signs of boundary violation and thus, has some of the sexual predatory characteristics that have been known about for decades?

Do I feel threatened if there is a penis in the cubicle next to me when I have a wee? - no
This penis is usually connected to a man, who already has a perfectly useable toilet usually across the corridor. He is taking the space from a woman which, especially at busy times, means women can be in the queue leaking into their underwear, or in great pain. A man is more likely to install a hidden camera so I'm guessing you are ok with any images shot appearing on porn sites across the world? There have been hundreds of threads about what one man does to a female space, this is just scraping the surface.

Do I agree with people who have been through male pubity competing in female catagories in sport? - no
You mean puberty, and are you saying that you think boys should have their puberty blocked in order to qualify for racing against women? This is a very confused and quite activisty sentence you have used here. What is it you are actually trying to say here?

Do I feel that someone I know - who has now been living as a woman longer than she ever lived as a man, should be able to use female pronouns and spaces? - Yes
You can call your friend what you want. But your friend needs to know that he cannot ever be a woman, and if women read him as male they have every right to act accordingly. You do not have the right to give up every other woman's rights to single sex spaces.

WallaceinAnderland · 26/07/2024 13:22

You have to decide whether you believe men who say they are women actually are.

If you believe TWAW then naturally you would say that they should be treated as women in all circumstances and admitted to all things female because they are women.

If you believe TWAM then naturally you would exclude them from all single sex spaces, clubs, sports, prisons, hospitals, etc. which are just for women.

You can't really believe both.

Xiaoxiong · 26/07/2024 13:19

Also I have two "old-school" transwomen in my parents's generation of my family/family friends, one of whom was at my wedding. Both of them are clear that they are male and would use male toilets when out and about (though to be honest they will take extra steps not to have to, eg paying for a coffee so they can use the toilet in a coffee shop with just a single cubicle). I find it incredibly frustrating that when I have raised these issues with friends who believe transwomen are women, I am told to "listen to transpeople" as if I hadn't grown up with them.

Xiaoxiong · 26/07/2024 13:10

I personally think that you have to first define what it means to be a "trans ally". Does it mean supporting trans people to not be abused in the street, discriminated against for housing or fired for dressing as they wish? Or does it go further to support trans people using single sex spaces, applying for scholarships reserved for women, jobs for which being female is considered essential? Or going even further, is it to change your thinking to assert that a trans woman is in actual fact, female so the David Lammy belief of a trans woman actually growing a cervix?

Different trans people will say different things about what they expect of allies so it is for you to decide yourself where your sense of fairness lies. There is no getting away from the fact that there is a clash of rights here - a single sex service cannot be provided if male people can use that service, it's not a whole "rights aren't like pie" situation.

I personally have not felt threatened in mixed sex toilets but I realised many years ago that I had no right to make that decision for other women who have different needs than me, because of prior SA, religious faith, or just because women are more vulnerable while using a toilet.

I feel strongly that we should have third spaces and more provision for people who feel excluded from single sex male and female spaces. Many trans people reject this as it makes them feel not affirmed. But my response to this would be that women are not here to affirm other people's beliefs about themselves.

Signalbox · 26/07/2024 13:09

StrumpersPlunkett · 26/07/2024 12:59

OK thanks,
so..
I feel that I am being pushed to be pro or anti trans rights. For me it is a much more nuanced discussion.
Do I feel that people with body dis-morphia should be supported and treated well? - Yes
Do I feel that all people who identify as trans are sexual predators? - no
Do I feel threatened if there is a penis in the cubicle next to me when I have a wee? - no
Do I agree with people who have been through male pubity competing in female catagories in sport? - no
Do I feel that someone I know - who has now been living as a woman longer than she ever lived as a man, should be able to use female pronouns and spaces? - Yes

How do I find a space where it is acceptable to be a trans ally without having to believe they can replace the very hard fought womens role in society/sport/politics? etc/

I think it's possible to have a nuanced view but the most important thing (I think) to keep in mind that you can't really consent for other women.

So you may be happy to share changing room spaces with men but you can't really expect that other women should also be comfortable to do so.

There is a case atm where nurses are taking their NHS Trust to a tribunal because they were expected to share changing room space with a male (who by all accounts was exhibiting inappropriate behaviour) and when the women complained they were told to re-educate themselves. Women like this should not be expected to consent simply because another woman in the hospital doesn't mind if they are sharing intimate spaces with men.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13459927/NHS-chiefs-legal-action-female-nurses-changing-room-transgender.html

StrumpersPlunkett · 26/07/2024 12:59

OK thanks,
so..
I feel that I am being pushed to be pro or anti trans rights. For me it is a much more nuanced discussion.
Do I feel that people with body dis-morphia should be supported and treated well? - Yes
Do I feel that all people who identify as trans are sexual predators? - no
Do I feel threatened if there is a penis in the cubicle next to me when I have a wee? - no
Do I agree with people who have been through male pubity competing in female catagories in sport? - no
Do I feel that someone I know - who has now been living as a woman longer than she ever lived as a man, should be able to use female pronouns and spaces? - Yes

How do I find a space where it is acceptable to be a trans ally without having to believe they can replace the very hard fought womens role in society/sport/politics? etc/

OP posts:
Xiaoxiong · 26/07/2024 12:46

As in...there are no stupid questions...

Xiaoxiong · 26/07/2024 12:45

And it's all anonymous here so please speak freely. No stupid questions!

Xiaoxiong · 26/07/2024 12:45

I don't know what you mean by safe. You will get honest non-abusive responses if that's what you mean. And with proper SPAG!

Ask away - we are not the #nodebate crew trying to shut down people asking questions!