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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is this a safe place to ask a question without being flamed?

263 replies

StrumpersPlunkett · 26/07/2024 12:43

I have a question relating to transgender issues and working through my thoughts on things but it feels like a conversation I am only allowed to have in my head.
Is this a safe place to talk it through?

OP posts:
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7
Hoppinggreen · 26/07/2024 14:04

WallaceinAnderland · 26/07/2024 13:28

How many women are assaulted by men presenting as men in women only spaces? vs men presenting as women?

Does it matter? How many women need to be assaulted by males presenting as women before we are allowed to complain?

I agree, it doesn't matter how many.
Even if it were zero (unlikely) then men should not be in women only spaces. My DH and DS are not predators but I would still think it was unacceptable for them to use a Ladies toilet

Snowypeaks · 26/07/2024 14:03

I have all the same questions and observations that pps have posted. In addition:

Do I feel that someone I know - who has now been living as a woman longer than she ever lived as a man, should be able to use female pronouns and spaces? - Yes
He wouldn't be using female pronouns - he would be expecting other people to do so about him.

Fordian · 26/07/2024 13:59

StrumpersPlunkett · 26/07/2024 13:38

I am very thankful for all your replies so far - and thank you for explaining rather than just being irritated by my thoughts.

You have given me the confidence to accept that what I am hoping for long term is a place where trans-gender individuals are identified as separate from people who identify as their birth gender. Specifically people born male who identify as female.

I wouldn't have the courage to have these conversations in real life so you have been a real help.

I am popping out so if there are further posts I haven't run away.

I think it is important to recognise, as others have said, that many trans identifying men ('transwomen') do not want a third space, because that does not validate their feeling of being an actual woman.

Take Lia Thomas, the guy who was 476 (?) in the Pennsylvania universities male swimming league. He came first as a 'woman'. The eye watering unfairness of this forced the league rule makers to think again. They came up with a third 'open' category. Job done.

Except it lasted about 10 minutes because it transpires the trans identified men want to beat women, not each other. There were No Takers.

Few had issue with cross dressers, transvestites, transsexuals; but that all changed when the coy 'gender' became to mean the same as 'sex', thus, a guy who THINKS he's a woman suddenly IS a woman; budge over, girls.

This is where the battle lines were drawn.

Morwenscapacioussleeves · 26/07/2024 13:53

Do I feel that someone I know - who has now been living as a woman longer than she ever lived as a man, should be able to use female pronouns and spaces? - Yes

Once your friend has access to that space it is no longer a female space - it's a mixed sex space.
Consent is not transferable & for example neither I nor my teen daughters consent to getting changed in a mixed sex space.
By allowing your friend to access that space you exclude many many women who can't/won't use a mixed sex space.

Plus you're comfortable with your friend would you be comfortable sharing a changing room with Sarah Jane Baker? How do you include one & exclude the other?
(What does living as a woman mean - your friend is living as a man who has had cosmetic surgery/takes hormones/wants to conform to sexist ideas of what a woman is. They can't live as a woman as they are not a woman.)

single sex spaces are safer for women & girls

popeydokey · 26/07/2024 13:52

"Identifying as your birth gender" is so meaningless.
Do I see that I have a female body? Yes.

Do I like it? Depends - would rather not have periods, and obviously there are times when being male would be far more advantageous. As I can't change my sex it would not be healthy for me to focus on this when I could be focusing on making the world more equal for men and women. Lots of people don't like things about their body and strongly wish it was different.

Do I feel I have some sort of personality that "aligns" with being female? No, because I'm not a sexist arse.

Alucard55 · 26/07/2024 13:52

Op - genuine question here not trying to be arsey.

Do you think that biological men should have access into female only spaces?

AlisonDonut · 26/07/2024 13:50

RantyMcRanterton · 26/07/2024 13:48

yes this has me stumped as, well.

And me!

Maybe we will get a full explanation once the OP returns.

RantyMcRanterton · 26/07/2024 13:48

ErrolTheDragon · 26/07/2024 13:45

You have given me the confidence to accept that what I am hoping for long term is a place where trans-gender individuals are identified as separate from people who identify as their birth gender.

I don't understand what you mean by this.

yes this has me stumped as, well.

popeydokey · 26/07/2024 13:48

When you say "living as a woman" can you give any example of something that someone does that means they are a woman for doing that thing, and not a man?

Is it literally 'stating that you are a woman'?

Imo in most situations in life people shouldn't be treating men and women differently anyway.
But in the relatively few situations where your sex matters, it matters - so be honest about it.

GailBlancheViola · 26/07/2024 13:47

TheEyesOfLucyJordon · 26/07/2024 13:41

Do I feel that someone I know - who has now been living as a woman longer than she ever lived as a man, should be able to use female pronouns and spaces? - Yes

Nobody born male has spent a single second 'living as a woman'.

This a million times over.

ErrolTheDragon · 26/07/2024 13:45

You have given me the confidence to accept that what I am hoping for long term is a place where trans-gender individuals are identified as separate from people who identify as their birth gender.

I don't understand what you mean by this.

GailBlancheViola · 26/07/2024 13:44

WallaceinAnderland · 26/07/2024 13:28

How many women are assaulted by men presenting as men in women only spaces? vs men presenting as women?

Does it matter? How many women need to be assaulted by males presenting as women before we are allowed to complain?

There are reported incidents of women and girls being assaulted by men who think they are women in women's spaces, including toilets. Katie Dolatowski being one infamous example, held a knife to the throat of one of the girls he assaulted.

However, amazingly, there are NO, that is ZERO, NONE reported incidents of men who think they are women and present in a way that they believe is stereotypical of women being assaulted in men's toilets or changing rooms when using them. In fact some prominent TW went into the Men's toilets to 'prove' how dangerous it would be for them and the stunt backfired on them massively the men in the toilet took absolutely NO notice of them in there at all, not so much as a side eye or comment.

All men, however they feel about themselves, however they dress, whether or not they are taking chemicals to change their bodies, wear make up or have had any surgical alterations to their bodies should stay OUT of ALL women's spaces. We don't segregate these spaces on the basis of people being nice, how on earth would that work? They are segregated on the basis of sex and sex does not change no matter what. Allow one male into a women's space the door is opened for all males.

If transwomen are unhappy about using the facilities designated for their sex they need to lobby for alternative provision, you know just like disabled people had to.

hihelenhi · 26/07/2024 13:43

Well, even your first question is difficult to answer. Not everyone who doesn't identify with their "gender" (aka sex stereotypes associated with their sex) calls themselves "trans" or "non-binary". In fact, most do not because most people are not walking sex stereotypes.

And certainly most feminists do not identify with the idea of "feminine" (which "gender" appears to refer to, in other words, stereotypes of supposedly "female" behaviour) equating to "female" (sex, regardless of adherence or not to any such stereotypes). Feminism has been fighting this regressive idea for well over half a century now. But that doesn't mean they will "identify as being a different gender" in the way that trans/gender ideology posits. Quite the opposite.Many of us feel gender ideology entrenches limiting, regressive sex stereotypes rather than opposing them as we would.For instance, if you say that a girl who has short hair and hates wearing dresses "isn't really female" and is something else called "non-binary" or even "male", you are limiting being female to a male idea of "femininity" in exactly the same way regressive sexists always have. Not only that, it is being used to actively dismantle the rights women fought for on the basis of our sex; because discrimination against us was and still is, based on our sex, not our adherence to stereotypes.

It might be better to ask what people who identify as being something called "trans" or "non-binary" actually think that means, and how they believe that distinguishes them from the rest of the population.

TheEyesOfLucyJordon · 26/07/2024 13:41

Do I feel that someone I know - who has now been living as a woman longer than she ever lived as a man, should be able to use female pronouns and spaces? - Yes

Nobody born male has spent a single second 'living as a woman'.

StrumpersPlunkett · 26/07/2024 13:39

PS just to say I am totally clear on my views on puberty blockers. Absolutely feel they are wrong for these issues.

OP posts:
StrumpersPlunkett · 26/07/2024 13:38

I am very thankful for all your replies so far - and thank you for explaining rather than just being irritated by my thoughts.

You have given me the confidence to accept that what I am hoping for long term is a place where trans-gender individuals are identified as separate from people who identify as their birth gender. Specifically people born male who identify as female.

I wouldn't have the courage to have these conversations in real life so you have been a real help.

I am popping out so if there are further posts I haven't run away.

OP posts:
WallaceinAnderland · 26/07/2024 13:37

My DH is a saint. Wouldn't hurt anyone and totally understands and agrees that women need, deserve are are entitled to privacy, dignity, safety and, I would add, respect. He is also excluded from female spaces. Not because he's a predator but because he's male.

Transwomen are male. It's literally the only qualification needed. Females cannot be transwomen. So why should those males be treated any differently to the rest of the male population? Why should they be afforded special treatment to ignore boundaries and safe guarding?

That's what you should perhaps be thinking about OP.

popeydokey · 26/07/2024 13:33

The line for me was when "transgender" changed from meaning "someone who strongly wishes to be the opposite sex" - which has its own issues around the subjects you mention, but could have been sensibly discussed and some solutions reached.

Now it means "you are one sex, but you have this thing called gender identity which is innate and indefinable, but it is the sole determining factor in whether you are a man or a woman, because those terms no longer mean "male" or "female", and there is also such a thing as genders "matching" each sex even though being either male or female can mean you're a man, and if you don't have this matchup between sex and gender identity then you can be trans, and you're trans if you say you are, and also literally a woman if you say you are".

The dishonesty and contradictions have led people to get very muddled about what they even mean when they use the words man and woman. And people have taken advantage of this to shut down practical discussions by deeming everyone transphobic who won't nod along to things that don't make sense.

We need to lose this whole concept of "i have a woman gender which means I am literally a woman, which both does and doesn't mean female" and get back to actual gender dysphoria.

If we lived in a sexism-free society we'd have no connotations about "what women are like" but people can't separate "female" from any kind of stereotype or concept of femininity.

RinklyRomaine · 26/07/2024 13:30

What's the significance of the actual numbers? The man next to my daughter on Primarks changing area probably won't attack her, but does she have the right not to expose her 14 year old body to him because only a few have attacked teens?

It's all very well to push the idea that's the debate is toxic because it's polarised, but that polarisation is unavoidable. Either all men are excluded and no child should be surgically or chemically altered, or none. You can't pick and choose which of these men are allowed in a women's prison, insist they have the surgery, or say some children are more trans than others. It's polarised because sexual is immutable and you either understand that or ignore it.

MarieDeGournay · 26/07/2024 13:29

It sounds as if you've done a lot of thinking about the subject already, OP, and have found positions that are acceptable to you. There are some aspects that I wouldn't agree with, e.g. not being bothered with men using women's toilets, and I hope you don't think that just because it doesn't bother you, it shouldn't bother any women, because it does.

I don't think there's much need for any more 'trans allies', there seems to be an abundance of them in the media, education, medicine, politics etc etc, so you just do you, in whatever way seems thoughtful, valid, evidence-based and rational to you.

SmileyHappyPeopleInTheSun · 26/07/2024 13:28

Do I feel threatened if there is a penis in the cubicle next to me when I have a wee? - no

Depends on the set up for me but my comfort levels will differ to people who've suffered sexual assault or have religious restrictions.

Do I feel that someone I know - who has now been living as a woman longer than she ever lived as a man, should be able to use female pronouns and spaces? - Yes

Again nuanced but I tend to polite in public spaces ie if told pronouns are expected will try and use -as I think most people do but my DD2 at school as girl who flip flops between pronouns and names and flies off handle to people making a mistake ( common in my family were nouns and pronouns, names can get mixed up due to dyslexia and various ND) - so will back her if she gets into trouble with school or this girl as it's not malicious.

I think as trans activists have got more demanding and vocal tolerance has been eroded and postilions entrenched - but you have to consider the whole "Meet me in the middle," says the unjust man. You take a step towards him, he takes a step back. "Meet me in the middle," says the unjust man - aspect it's always women expected to do with out budge up and offer compromises - women toilets which already tend to have longer queue which tend to get made mixed sex while men often keep theirs. Mixed sex changing room have higher numbers of sexual assaults - but this often gets swept away and ignored.

WallaceinAnderland · 26/07/2024 13:28

How many women are assaulted by men presenting as men in women only spaces? vs men presenting as women?

Does it matter? How many women need to be assaulted by males presenting as women before we are allowed to complain?

AlisonDonut · 26/07/2024 13:28

How many people in the UK identify as a gender different to their birth?
How many of those have had gender reassignment surgery?
How many women are assaulted by men presenting as men in women only spaces? vs men presenting as women? - Is there actually a significant risk? (This is not to take away someones right to feel uncomfortable with it!)

None of this matters. Men are a higher risk to women. Men in prison who say they are women are three times as likely to be there for sexual offences than men who don't say they are women.

There should be disciplinary measures and in my opinion under no circumstances should the majority have to change their thought processes to appease someone not behaving appropriately.

The reason we assess risk differently for males and females is due to behaviour. It is always better to avoid risk rather than have another female destroyed for life.

hihelenhi · 26/07/2024 13:26

I'm not sure that the answers to these will be "polarised perspectives" as much as "facts". Some of which, some find uncomfortable.

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