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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Is this a safe place to ask a question without being flamed?

263 replies

StrumpersPlunkett · 26/07/2024 12:43

I have a question relating to transgender issues and working through my thoughts on things but it feels like a conversation I am only allowed to have in my head.
Is this a safe place to talk it through?

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NameChangedForThisDiscussion · 31/07/2024 10:00

StrumpersPlunkett · 30/07/2024 22:51

I didn't bail, have been interested reading, but had nothing to add.
It was clear from first couple of days that I had a lot of back ground reading to do and so I thought it best to do that before commenting further.

Glad you stuck around

UtopiaPlanitia · 31/07/2024 00:58

StrumpersPlunkett · 30/07/2024 22:51

I didn't bail, have been interested reading, but had nothing to add.
It was clear from first couple of days that I had a lot of back ground reading to do and so I thought it best to do that before commenting further.

Dunno if you’d find this useful or not but it’s a book I used when I was studying feminist political theory at Uni in the 90s. We read the first edition of the book but this third edition came out a few years later and seems quite similar but with a few updates:

Feminist Thought: A More Comprehensive Introduction

It summarises all the major schools of feminist thought and analyses their strengths/weaknesses.

popeydokey · 30/07/2024 23:05

Well you won't get far on MN if you actually want to absorb information and think your thoughts through before posting!
(Kidding, obviously (I hope) - you'd be welcome in this section)

StrumpersPlunkett · 30/07/2024 22:51

NameChangedForThisDiscussion · 30/07/2024 20:54

Shame the OP @StrumpersPlunkett bailed out of the thread after the first day I was interested to know her thoughts on some of the issues raised.

I didn't bail, have been interested reading, but had nothing to add.
It was clear from first couple of days that I had a lot of back ground reading to do and so I thought it best to do that before commenting further.

OP posts:
NameChangedForThisDiscussion · 30/07/2024 20:54

Shame the OP @StrumpersPlunkett bailed out of the thread after the first day I was interested to know her thoughts on some of the issues raised.

DrBlackbird · 30/07/2024 15:18

Midlifecareerchange · 30/07/2024 10:38

@DrBlackbird we do have a handful of trans students but I've never happened to teach them. I'm not saying it's a non issue! Just that I've never in real life felt pressured to take a stance professionally or socially and I wondered what kind of environment would pressure someone in that way. It rarely even gets discussed in my school.

Ah okay. I think perhaps count yourself lucky that SMT are not driving an agenda. I’m currently doing my best to remain neutral but the endless drive for declaring pronouns (we have to start every committee meeting stating them, requests for adding them to email signatures, badges distributed, asking students to declare them etc) along with EDI training misrepresenting the EA, my captured union, etc etc makes it challenging. I’m not sure our central SMT are driving this but definitely happy to outsource to a committee that is driving the queering the university agenda.

SamQuint · 30/07/2024 13:23

Midlifecareerchange · 30/07/2024 10:38

@DrBlackbird we do have a handful of trans students but I've never happened to teach them. I'm not saying it's a non issue! Just that I've never in real life felt pressured to take a stance professionally or socially and I wondered what kind of environment would pressure someone in that way. It rarely even gets discussed in my school.

Here's a scenario I was in recently. Went for a day out to a Watersports centre, I'd never been there before, they do kayaking and boating and paddle boarding.
We went into the main building to pay, one member of staff on duty behind a desk, she informed us that there were several coach parties of school children expected that day so the lake might be busy.

Off to the side of the reception desk was two doors leading to the female and male changing rooms.
I went in to the female changing room which was literally one large open room with wooden benches and lockers, two showers. No separate cubicles at all, the showers didn't have doors or curtains.
At the time I got changed into my swimming costume and then wetsuit I was the only person in there.

When I returned a few hours later to have a shower and get dressed- which would obviously require completely stripping off- there was 25-30 teenage girls in there getting changed. No other adults were present in the room.
One girl just along from me was clearly upset and didn't want to get changed, her friends promised to hold their towels round her so she could get undressed without anyone seeing anything.

Can you now picture that same situation with a trans woman present, be that a person known to them ie a classmate or an unknown.
Teenage girls getting completely undressed, no adult supervision.
What do you think should happen? do the girls carry on or do they ask the person to leave?

NoBinturongsHereMate · 30/07/2024 11:34

we are a school with a known toilet shortage!!

Effect.

all staff toilets are single room non gender/ sec specific with washbasin

Cause.

Single, fully enclosed with washbasin toilets take up more space (so fewer are built) and are slower to use.

Midlifecareerchange · 30/07/2024 10:43

And funnily enough one of the things that hasn't come up is toilets even though we are a school with a known toilet shortage!! Takes bloody ages to find one that's free, however all staff toilets are single room non gender/ sec specific with washbasin so the trans kids use those, as do random other kids who want to vape etc

Midlifecareerchange · 30/07/2024 10:38

@DrBlackbird we do have a handful of trans students but I've never happened to teach them. I'm not saying it's a non issue! Just that I've never in real life felt pressured to take a stance professionally or socially and I wondered what kind of environment would pressure someone in that way. It rarely even gets discussed in my school.

DrBlackbird · 30/07/2024 10:18

Midlifecareerchange · 27/07/2024 20:53

who Is pushing you to take a stance on this? I'm curious because I only ever encounter this issue online - never irl, even though I'm a teacher and out and about in the world. My school has recently issued updated guidance in the light of Cass but I still haven't ever taught a trans student.

I’m guessing you teach senior school? Although I’m surprised that there are no trans students in your school. There are clearly trans masc / trans femme students in our local senior schools and sixth forms.

This issue is definitely present at my uni. Very much so. There’s even a "queering the agenda" programme run centrally and all our diversity training focuses on the T and not the LGB. Depends on the department, but there are many many uni students who identify as trans. I couldn’t see anyone GC such as Doc Stock or Maya being invited to speak.

As such, no one needs to be ‘pushing’ the OP to take a stance. I would suggest that even if you haven’t experienced this issue, that doesn’t mean that there are not others who have and continue to manage these situations quite frequently.

Edited to agree it’s not about winning or losing. Seems to be the TRAs that characterise this as a war (on their ‘rights’ including to be in the spaces they demand access to) and hence invoking the language of winning or losing. The vast majority of FWR GC posters always advocate live how you want and third spaces to keep single sex spaces for women’s privacy, dignity and safety ie accommodating different needs.

UpThePankhurst · 30/07/2024 08:49

I wish it didn't have to be framed as 'winning'.

All that is needed is solutions that work for everybody. Most are absolutely fine with everyone identifying and presenting and naming themselves any way they choose, the limits to that freedom is impacting upon other people's access, equality and freedoms.

Everyone's entitled to pick and share their own pronouns: just not to require others to use them. It's a choice, it's about mutual respect.

And women should not be excluded by men from a women's space because men feel that their right to express their gender is more important than women's dignity, privacy, access and inclusion, and safety. Nor it is right that women should be required to provide themselves to be used by a man, including for sexual agendas, to be able to use women's services and resources. Of course it's not right, it's ethically absolutely awful.

All it will take is mutual and reciprocal respect and tolerance, and kindness and willingness to care on both sides. And sadly the lack of reciprocation isn't a trans issue, it's a men's issue.

changedusernameforthis1 · 30/07/2024 01:55

As a trans man, I think it's so complicated and whatever you say or do, you sadly can't win. It would be so lovely if we could all sit down and just talk about it.

When I came out as trans, it felt weird. I expected to feel free, but the groups I joined and other trans people I spoke to, they weren't like me. There were so many things I didn't agree with. I started to think I was wrong, because I wasn't screaming about trans rights or demanding someone use he/him pronouns loudly in a public place.

But I came across MN one day and after reading tons of trans related posts, I realised that there is a huge difference between transphobic and GC. And I bloody love the GC side of mumsnet. There's absolutely nothing wrong with supporting trans people and having limits. You don't have to be pro or anti trans and agree to everything people tell you. You can be in the middle. Sit on the bench. We probably have cookies somewhere 😁

But in seriousness, I don't think this is a fight that either side can win, and unfortunately a lot of trans people are the reason for that.
You can't break into someone's house, change their wallpaper and then be upset when they tell you that they don't like it.

Catiette · 30/07/2024 01:17

@Omlettes. Not only not condemned as illegal, but an attitude proactively encouraged by government in this case…

https://www.vic.gov.au/media/977575

As many women globally have noted, the woman’s look seems more like one of fear. Not least because so many of us have every reason to be wary of entering an enclosed space with a strange male. According to this campaign, though, women putting their actual physical safety before a male’s emotional “safety” (AKA well-being, at most) is abhorrent.

Given the above was rolled out on this scale & is still online… I think we can assume it’s happening.

NameChangedForThisDiscussion · 30/07/2024 00:17

Midlifecareerchange · 27/07/2024 20:53

who Is pushing you to take a stance on this? I'm curious because I only ever encounter this issue online - never irl, even though I'm a teacher and out and about in the world. My school has recently issued updated guidance in the light of Cass but I still haven't ever taught a trans student.

Lucky you, I’ve been encountering men dressing as women and using spaces such as toilets on and off for 40 years.

BabaYagasHouse · 29/07/2024 15:12

RedToothBrush · 28/07/2024 07:33

My point is that everyone wants to be nice. They want to accept without question. The problem is that it's a situation where it's not necessarily being nice to uphold a lie. It can do more harm in the long run to both parties. Ultimately you can't change sex and this matters.

It matters because people retain behaviours and experiences and expectations. It matters because of physical strength and abilities. It matters because of trauma and dignity.

Is it kind or respectful of a male to walk into a female changing room with women who have religious sensitivities or may have a history of sexual abuse or being stalked and then undress in that room having never had surgery which is the case for most transwomen?

Is it kind or respectful of a male to demand he be included in women's sport, especially if that comes with an educational scholarship and at the expense of a woman who can't compete with his physicality. Especially if the sport is a contact sport and may put the women he is competing against at greater risk.

There is ultimately a point in this journey where you realise that your generousity of spirit is a one way thing and that what you are actually doing is an act of self harm which is demanded by emotional manipulation. It isnt acknowledged as this.

This is where we see the power dynamics and the socialisation of women in particular at play, in terms of being used to deferring to make demands. It's where we see issues of class emerging and high status men and women betraying and abusing lower status women in the name of inclusivity because they are protected from a particular issue and have no empathy or understanding of the lives of those outside their social bubble.

It's a journey we all go on. Never at any point does any one who go on it, become a nasty person. It's just that their empathy and understanding of who is the most vulnerable and most in need of protection shifts and they realise they've been misled and misunderstood the dynamics.

No one wants to harm anyone. This is about understanding the balance of issues and who they effect and how. And where things have been exaggerated and manipulated for material gains despite the evidence (or indeed evidence is actively suppressed in order to manipulate).

We have data that shows that cross dressing forms a pattern in serious sexual offenders. We have data that trans identifying prisoners have rates of sexually related offences higher than the general male prison population. Yet we are not permitted to talk about this because this offends law abiding trans people. Unfortunately we have to in the same way that we have to acknowledge that Islamic terrorists statistically tend to come from certain backgrounds and that ultra right wing domestic terrorism follows certain patterns too.

We understand that people who fall into those categories are law abiding citizens in the majority of cases, but we must be aware of these patterns in how we function as a society without persecuting at the same time. It's not an easy task and yes, it is problematic but it's about balancing issues and harms.

We also have to acknowledge in law that voyeurism is acknowledged as a crime and has certain patterns of offense where males take advantage of soft areas and exploit them. These are trans people. They are criminals who will go to lengths to commit their crimes. We have to offer protections that recognise this. A failure to acknowledge this is an issue and to pretend that there's no risk to self I'd is not kind. It is a wholesale dereliction of duty by those in positions of authority.

Anyone who is trans and is kind needs to understand that their need for validation can not and should not put others at risk. They are deserving of protections but this shouldn't come at a cost of harm to others. Because this is not kind.

I think there's a point where so many people who go on the journey from being totally accepting without question, feel this incredible guilt from asking questions and feel almost dirty from doing so. Because of the social pressure to 'do the right thing'. Ultimately the right thing is to not act on emotion but to seek out information dispassionately and acknowledge where there are issues which perhaps are inconvenient and don't fit the narrative. Because this is recognition of how the real world works in practice and not a naive idealistic version of what we should be doing if everyone was nice and the world was perfect. We don't live in a perfect world.

Fantastic post

GailBlancheViola · 29/07/2024 13:44

If I remember right, I think the 'you cannot leave the toilets on seeing a male is in there' thing came from a civil service office??

It was in a Civil Service office diktat with the added example of a woman having turned round and exited the toilets because there was a man in there being the crime of the century for which the witch must be burned.

UpThePankhurst · 29/07/2024 09:15

Omlettes · 29/07/2024 04:35

WTF! Where is this, please provide link to this because its almost certainly illegal if true?

I remember the threads, these were experiences shared by MNetters in discussion rather than articles in journals or newspapers. If I remember right, I think the 'you cannot leave the toilets on seeing a male is in there' thing came from a civil service office??

If you rummage around and search threads you should come across them. Sadly unless a woman has the multiple thousands and the willingness to screw her career for good and the resilience to deal with several years of intense stress and harassment, resisting through the courts isn't possible. It's why many women are so very grateful to women like Maya who have been able to do that and get HR and establishments reminded that they do have to follow the law.

hihelenhi · 29/07/2024 08:42

DeanElderberry · 29/07/2024 08:29

Ah - yes, I know all about Aston and their skeevy scrapy ways, just somehow blanked out the acronym.

I agree that there's a lot of that sort of thing.

Oh, hilarious. Pity that we tend to be so much more logical than some of our more hyperbolic TRA visitors and can back up our claims, then, isn't it?

hihelenhi · 29/07/2024 08:40

Omlettes · 29/07/2024 04:35

WTF! Where is this, please provide link to this because its almost certainly illegal if true?

How do you suggest we "prove" it's true? It has been reported by people, yes. I believe we're talking here about posts that have been made by posters on Mumsnet relaying their personal experiences, asking for advice etc, but there may be others. I remember one here fairly recently, for instance, where an employee said she had been taken to HR over an incident with a "trans" colleague in the Ladies. Something to do with tampons? I'm sure you'll be able to find examples yourself if you take the time to look.

DeanElderberry · 29/07/2024 08:29

Ah - yes, I know all about Aston and their skeevy scrapy ways, just somehow blanked out the acronym.

I agree that there's a lot of that sort of thing.

DrBlackbird · 29/07/2024 08:23

DeanElderberry · 28/07/2024 18:05

AIFL? Artificial Intelligence For Larpers?

sorry, got nothing

Aston Institute for Forensic Linguistics. Those folks that have been data scraping off MN for years. More recently to prove we’re all transphobes.

Omlettes · 29/07/2024 04:35

TWETMIRF · 27/07/2024 18:26

Women have been told that if they go into the ladies at work and come straight out again because a transwoman is in there, they will be disciplined for transphobia. This means that women can't even choose when they use the toilets in their workplace to try and avoid sharing with the opposite sex.

We've heard from women who have had transwomen colleagues who mysteriously seem to need the toilet whenever they do. Can you imagine how threatening it would be to be followed in every single time? The women who have reported this were warned about their transphobia, the man following them is supported by their employer to keep doing it.

WTF! Where is this, please provide link to this because its almost certainly illegal if true?

Catsmere · 29/07/2024 03:09

@Alucard55 too kind! ☺️

Alucard55 · 29/07/2024 01:10

Catsmere
I'm stealing Misogynist LARPing and I'm using it in my next email to my local MP.