Thank you.

Do you think that girls should have their own events? And I say this knowing that resources may not be available.

"Is what you are saying is that the girls are winning despite the physical advantages the boys have?"

I'm saying that the overall performance of girls and boys at this level is the same, but my observation is that girls and boys have different strengths and weaknesses. Boys (not all boys) often have better max power and strength endurance. Girls (not all girls) often have better CV endurance and racecraft. Boys gain an advantage once they hit puberty. They also catch up in terms of racecraft (although I still have a couple of 12yo boys who seem incapable of changing bloody gear...)

Grassroots, there is no national level competition for cycling until U14.

Yes, I've seen that too. They sit in disbelief at some of the leg extensions or whatever (disclaimer: I have no idea of any technical gymnastics terms) and just get more and more vocally 'WTF??'

I didn’t realise it had been made private, though.

You said:
, I've seen those kind of studies before. None of them have been done on cycling AFAIK
So I asked why the studies about physical advantages of boys over girls would not apply to cycling?

Boys are stronger and faster. That's the issue here - that's why it's unfair to allow a even a man/boy who has not gone through puberty to race in women's or girls' competition. The girls may be easier to coach or be tactically aware, but boys are also capable of listening to their coach and learning racecraft, aren't they?

I thought my question was also pretty clear in clarifying what you have said. Because, I didn't find your statement to be clear and sought clarification. If you don't wish to clarify it, don't.

And I will assume then that those children still should be separated by sex because the male children have an advantage. You have assumed that it is for a particular reason, from your experiences, but it may or may not be actually relevant.

If the girls wish to race in an open race, that is fine. However, do you think that their own events still be protected from the start?

Can be similar in swimming - sometimes the girls qualifying times can be slightly faster than the boys at around 11 / 12 yrs.

@Helleofabore sorry, I don't mean to be rude but which part of my post was unclear? As I say: we typically see girls racing as fast as boys up to U12 because even if they don't have the raw power (although some do), they generally make better tactical decision, exhibit better teamwork, and generally show more mature racecraft from an earlier age. Mostly because they actually bloody listen to their coach :)

A VO2max test on a treadmill is not a great predictor of racecraft, which, particularly at youth level, is a huge component of ability to get results.

Is what you are saying is that the girls are winning despite the physical advantages the boys have? So if the boys behaved as the girls behave, those boys would be winning because they have the raw power and the other advantages listed in the studies, they just lack the discipline?

Is this at National level, or just grass roots?

It wouldn't solve the problem because the men in women's sport are there because it's labelled women's sport and they get validation from being there and in the changing rooms. And it's easier to win prizes.

Remember the swimming competition that had an open category and no-one entered?

It's not about competing, it's about finding the easiest way to win and/or validation and/or misogyny, beating women specifically.

Anyway, this is the US, where TWAW, no debate.

I reckon it would. Happy to give it a try to find out..

I see reports of unfairness and detriment to women and girls and I’m ready to get rid of the whole edifice

Consider women and girls not men for a change

yes.

It has been said that it is still untested and therefore there is a lack of confidence in the UK to use these exceptions by some people reporting their sports organisations are still working through new policies.

It is certainly an issue in Australia according to Kieran Perkins, of Sports Australia, although this has yet to be tested.

Not just that. Flushes of testosterone and other androgens affect anything with the right receptors - so muscles as well.

Actual hell ferret 😱

Ooh! You can get CBeebies in hell....doesn't surprise me. Part of the punishment.

If there are that many trans women in this competition, couldn't they have a separate competition just for trans women? That would solve the problem immediately.

I don't particularly care about the GRA. I just don't think that repealing it will have any effect in sports (it may do in other areas of course, but we are talking about sport here). What will make a difference is athletes, sponsors and funding bodies exerting pressure on governing bodies.

What is it about cycling that would be different, do you think?

@Helleofabore yes, I've seen those kind of studies before. None of them have been done on cycling AFAIK and they also don't seem to address the "overlap" years when girls hit puberty and have their growth spurt before boys. We typically see girls racing as fast as boys up to U12 because even if they don't have the raw power (although some do), they generally make better tactical decision, exhibit better teamwork, and generally show more mature racecraft from an earlier age. Mostly because they actually bloody listen to their coach :)

The preschool sports day gave this away in spades a few weeks ago. The two year olds could toddle together. The preschool races were separated by boys and girls. The manager explained they'd had to do this following the practices, as the boys even at three and four were so much faster than the girls that they just won everything.

I cast out the false prophet Biglylettersgiver! Twice, thrice, I curse her! She shall be consigned to hell for all eternity (not just a bit of it, ALL of it) with no Tunnocks to relieve the hunger gnawing at her entrails along with the Hell-ferrets!

On the basis that legislation underpins males access to many places

We cannot ask to see a GRC so the number issue often cited on these threads is irrelevant

Remove that and it changes things to benefit women and girls, why would men enter anywhere? There would be no legal underpinning to do so

Let’s prioritise women and girls, repeal the GRA and keep
going until men don’t have access

Whose benefit are you pushing for anyway, why the reluctance? Could you say why you do want to keep it

There are now about three or four studies where it has been identified that from the age of 6 male children have a physical advantage over female children.

Danish study on VO2 max and LBM in children from age 6

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1725036/pdf/v039p00725.pdf

Maximum oxygen uptake and objectively measured physical activity in Danish children 6-7 years of age: the Copenhagen school child intervention study

Eigberg, Hasselstrom, Gronfeldt, Friberg, Svensson, Anderson
October 2005

Objectives: To provide normative data on maximum oxygen uptake (Vo(2)max) and physical activity in children 6-7 years of age and analyse the association between these variables.

Methods: Vo(2)max was measured in 366 boys (mean (SD) 6.8 (0.4) years of age) and 332 girls (6.7 (0.4) years of age) from preschool classes in two suburban communities in Copenhagen, during a progressive treadmill exercise. Habitual physical activity was measured with accelerometers.

Results: Boys had higher Vo(2)max both in absolute values (1.19 (0.18) v 1.06 (0.16) litres/min (+11%), p<0.001) and relative to body weight (48.5 (6.0) v 44.8 (5.6) ml/kg/min (+8%); p<0.001) than girls. The difference in Vo(2)max between boys and girls decreased to +2% when expressed relative to lean body mass (LBM). Absolute Vo(2)max was related to LBM, body mass, and stature (all p<0.001). Boys were more physically active than girls (mean counts +9.4%, p<0.001), and even when boys and girls with the same Vo(2)max were compared, boys were more active. The difference in physical activity between the sexes was higher when sustained activity of higher intensity was compared.

Conclusions: Vo(2)max is higher in boys than girls (+11%), even when related to body mass (+8%) and LBM (+2%). Most of the difference in Vo(2)max relative to body mass was explained by the larger percentage body fat in girls. When boys and girls with the same Vo(2)max were compared, boys engaged in more minutes of exercise of at least moderate intensity.

Australian children

https://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/document?repid=rep1&type=pdf&doi=021cccdaed57d120bb05bac71c05ee82b0c5b315

Greek children ( I have no access to this other than the publicly available)

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/17461391.2015.1088577?needAccess=true

Here is a new study released on sex differences between male and female children under 11 years old.

Sex-based differences in track running distances of 100, 200, 400, 800, and 1500m in the 8 and under and 9–10-year-old age groups

Gregory A Brown, Brandon S Shaw, Ina Shaw

5th February 2024

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ejsc.12075

"In conclusion, although some have stated that sex-based differences in athletic performance do not arise until puberty, the present data indicate that in the 8 and under and 9–10-year-old age groups males run faster than females in distances of 100, 200, 400, 800, and 1500m. While some females in these age groups are faster than some males, the average male finalists are faster than the average female finalists, and the fastest males are faster than the fastest females. As running is a key component of many sports, these sex-based differences between prepubertal males and females should be considered when sport governing bodies and policy makers consider the issue of sex-based sporting categories"

I would suggest that organisations who run the children together are fine to some extent if they reward each sex. However, I think that some studies would need to be done as to whether racing with male children deters female children from competing. It may prevent a female child from entering in the first place, even knowing the results are to be split.

@Snowypeaks

So even if a boy grows up without the benefit of the puberty turbo-charge in his teens, he will still benefit from male athletic performance advantage. There are two mini puberties before the main event.

I thought that mini puberties in boys was more to do with gonad development?

On what basis do you doubt this? The vast majority of transwomen in the UK do not have a GRC. The US, where this problem is endemic, doesn't even have an equivalent of the GRA.

The floor routines that earn points from moves such as where male people can use their greater ratio of fast twitch muscles to get more moves in, or get more height in their moves is very impressive. The q angle, always those hips, give greater stability too.