Elon Musk makes bombshell claim about his transgender child

Just to correct this, they deliberately put an age limit on collecting the data.

It wasn't an oversight.

“Decades of experience” but worthless - no actual evidence, as nobody thought to collect the data.

Being into fashion, musical theatre and using the term fabulous as a young child just reflects what they have been exposed to. I've got girls admittedly but they could sing along to many of the big musical numbers at 5 because I like them, played them in the car etc. mine also were exposed to going to opera, they didn't realise this was unusual until they were at junior school and others laughed. Honestly kids can be into anything

Exactly this, explained far more eloquently than I managed! I think it also applies to male/female gender norms - I was supposed to be the arty one and my brother the science one, so I got arty presents, theatre trips etc while my brother got chemistry sets and trips to the science museum. I'm now retraining in tech and wondering where I'd be if I'd hadn't been expected to be the girly/arty one who liked ballet and English. I liked robots and building stuff too but that was never indulged. (My brother however is a scientist, though not chemistry!) I think stereotyping or categorising children (or people) is all too often problematic.

It's one of those things were as a parent, you could observe this and it would probably mean that if/when your son announced he was gay, you'd be unsurprised. But it still isn't yours to assume for him, or to say to him or others. A wise parent would say "maybe, but let's wait and see and let him grow up without the burden of any expectations about it".

I think this whole area has become very clouded recently, especially with "trans kids" being labelled at very young ages and celebrated, in such a way that it becomes hard for them to back out. I think that's wrong and the same goes for being gay, which people also often change their minds about or aren't sure about until they're older. But it's becoming saturated into society (at least among the left, arty and slebs) to see it as OK for young children to be considered part of this stuff or that it\s appropriate to label them and inform them about all the details including some very adult stuff.

Musk considers himself opposed to transing kids, understandably but he's absorbed the idea that you can decide your small child is gay probably without even realising he's come under that same influence.

But I am not "flat-out denying that there’s a certain type of little boy who generally grows up to be gay." I don't appreciate you inventing opinions for me that I haven't offered. I am quite capable of forming my own arguments, and if you don't understand my meaning then please ask for clarification rather than make stuff up.

I stated that "Even if there is a 95% chance of a child who behaves like this growing into a gay man, as you 'bet me', that's still 5% who probably won't appreciate being pigeonholed for life by their behaviour as a four year old." That means I have not challenged your estimate of how often this "certain type of little boy ... generally grows up to be gay". I would actually not be at all surprised if the number was higher. Of course, even knowing the exact figure one would have to investigate cause and effect - if parents are seeing their children behave in a certain way and make assumptions it will very likely influence how they treat them and thus how the child turns out.

As you say: "Some of the things they predict happen, some don’t, and hopefully the parents take it in stride." There's nothing wrong at all in raising an eyebrow if your little boy is mad about musicals and shouting 'fabulous' at clothing choices; there is (in my personal opinion - which is what you asked for, and what I offered) something wrong with announcing that you "know" said child is definitely gay, and treating him as such. I believe all children - and adults, actually - should be treated as individuals and their behaviour should be appreciated as a special part of the human they are rather than indicative of anything deeper.

I don’t think anything’s a “win” - this is a conversation, not a competition.

Nobody’s “pigeonholed for life” because their parents (or other people) think they might be gay. People wonder all kinds of things about their children’s futures. Some of the things they predict happen, some don’t, and hopefully the parents take it in stride.

I feel like you’re just flat-out denying that there’s a certain type of little boy who generally grows up to be gay. There is. That’s why a lot of gay men have childhood anecdotes about being bullied for their “sissy” interests, or older male relatives who told them to stop “acting like a girl,” or idolizing diva-type actresses and singers.

And it’s okay to acknowledge that. It’s okay to listen to gay men talk about their lives and notice similarities among many of them that straight men are much less likely to have. It doesn’t mean these things happen to all gay men or never happen to straight men. But there’s nothing wrong with recognizing patterns, and recognizing patterns is often a quality of autistic people, like Elon Musk.

He said he knew his son was gay (ie sexually attracted to other males) when he was four because he liked musicals, picked out clothes for him to wear and used the word 'fabulous'. I think it's pushing it a bit to state that this four year old was 'into fashion', but in answer to your question there are many public figures who are involved in dance and into fashion. To name a very few, Reece Clarke, Matthew Ball, Marco Masciari, Cesar Corrales... All professional ballet dancers, all post on SM about fashion, all very much straight. I confess I do not know whether they use the word fabulous... maybe that's the key? An easy-peasy way of knowing if your four year old is going to grow into a gay man! Even if there is a 95% chance of a child who behaves like this growing into a gay man, as you 'bet me', that's still 5% who probably won't appreciate being pigeonholed for life by their behaviour as a four year old.

I did not criticize Elon Musk for claiming all gay men were 'that particular type' (?!), I'm not at all sure how on earth you reached that interpretation from my post? Elon Musk claimed no such thing, Elon Musk claimed he knew his four year child was gay because of this behaviour and my objection is that he should not have used it as definitive proof that his child was going to grow up to want sex with men, and that though he may have a suspicion, it would've been better to keep quiet wait and to see how he matured. My further point was that trying to link certain behaviours with sexual orientation is very unhelpful for both those people who fit the stereotype and those who do not.

I also didn't say "feminine qualities", I said "'feminine' qualities. Big difference. And I'm not sure that claiming gay men would immediately declare that a four year old was definitely homosexual whereas straight people would prefer to wait and see how they develop is quite the win you seem to think it is...

I don’t think he implied anywhere that all gay boys and men are that particular type. But have you ever met a heterosexual boy or man who was not only into theater, or into dance, but was into musical theater and critiqued people’s fashion choices and said things were fabulous? Maybe - I doubt it, but maybe. If you have, I bet there are twenty gay men like that for every straight one.

Criticizing Elon Musk because “not all gay men are like that” is criticizing him for a claim he never made. And I suspect that if he’d left it at “feminine qualities,” people would have criticized that too. “What feminine qualities? Notice how he doesn’t even have anything specific to list - this is all made up in his head.”

In my personal experience - and yours may vary - gay men are more likely than straight people to be okay with predicting that an effeminate little boy is going to be gay. Straight people are more like, “He’s nine years old, wants to wear a glittery leotard like Taylor Swift, can sing all of ‘Wicked,’ and told his sister that skinny jeans were ‘out’ this season - but that indicates nothing!” Whereas gay men are more like, “Yep, give it ten years and this kid’s gonna be a theater queen.”

Honestly I've been guilty of that! There are twin boys in DDs class (going into y2). One of them is all about shinies and glitter, and I was thinking "oh yeah prolly gay" but ... yeah he's just a nipper and I realised this was based on kind of ignorant stereotypes that I internalised as I was growing up.

It's funny, we (royal we) tend like to think we're super chill and open minded but we all have blind spots and prejudices.

I can only speak for myself but I personally don't feel stereotyping is helpful, either for those who turn out to be gay or for those who do not. I used to do ballet and the male dancers hated that they were always assumed to be gay. Some were or course, but the majority were not. Despite male dancers' objections, the myth however still persists and people like Musk still espouse it. This is not only irritating for straight dancers but (more importantly) puts boys off trying dance in the first place.

Aside from my personal experience, I'm not convinced it's particularly helpful in any case to categorise a child so early; a child into musicals and fashion may want to grow into an adult into cars and rugby - but if his parents have already decided he must be homosexual because he danced along to Frozen, he may find that this decision affects how they treat him. It could also make it more confusing for people who don't fit the stereotype - if they don't like musicals or fashion, can they really be gay? My brother was not and is not into musicals or fashion, he grew up liking dinosaurs and Transformers and cars and Xena, Warrior Princess. A couple of male friends of mine are very happily married and there's nothing 'gay' about them whatsoever. Apart from the fact they want to sleep with each other rather than women, of course. They really hate the stereotyping, including Pride etc, as they feel it 'others' them. Of course, not everyone agrees with them - I have another gay friend who absolutely adores Pride and travels to as many parades as he can to post photos of himself in feather boas and rainbow thongs! I don't think Pride is the problem, I think there just needs to be more understanding that not all gay people are the same, and that enjoying certain activities doesn't make someone gay or straight - any more than enjoying certain activities makes someone male or female.

Musk may well have raised an eyebrow if his son was indeed crazy about musicals and calling clothes 'fabulous', but he should have kept it to himself and seen how the child matured as it did not mean the child was thinking about having sexual relations with men. It meant he liked musicals and had presumably seen something where clothes were described as 'fabulous' and it had tickled him. Unless Musk thinks gay people are just born knowing the word fabulous and how to use it to describe a particularly snazzy jacket?!

All he needed to say was "I suspected my child might be gay as early as age 4 and I supported him completely as he matured, even as he decided to adopt more typically 'feminine' qualities. In his teens I could see he was struggling with his identity and I was informed he was even admitting to suicidal thoughts. So, like any parent, I was determined to do everything in my power to help him, including signing off on puberty blockers as I was informed they were harmless and reversible and would buy time to help my son with his mental health difficulties. I was lied to." No stereotyping, no bigotry, just a clear explanation of what happened to him - which is the exact same thing that has happened to too many other parents, rich and poor.

I don’t understand people acting like Elon Musk was so tremendously homophobic in describing his son’s (alleged) childhood behavior and connecting it to homosexuality. Not all gay men care about fashion and theater and “fabulous,” but let’s be honest - this is a common and noticeable type of gay boy or man. Most of the gay guys I did high school theater with were like this, as is my cousin, who’s marrying his boyfriend later this year. (His boyfriend is even a fashion journalist.) Many gay men recognize that this is a type and aren’t offended by people noticing it.

Xavier/Vivian’s whole bit with, “I couldn’t have known that, I was four” doesn’t hold water. In terms of advanced vocabulary, “fabulous” isn’t exactly “dodecahedron,” and plenty of little kids know what musicals are.

“He left his child reading to his incubators”? Women are never “incubators,” no matter what their reproductive history is. Women are human beings.

If your point is that, in your view, Musk treats women like incubators, the child in question is Musk’s child with his ex-wife.

Kids who are put on puberty blockers due to gender dysphoria and who go on to transition don't actually go through puberty and mature as normal though. They are put on a cocktail of hormones and drugs to mimic what the puberty of the opposite sex would do. Anyone who thinks this is ok and won't have any adverse side effects is insane and blinded by ideology. It's literally stunting people's growth and potential. I saw a video a while ago of a group of adult mtf transitioners who never went through male puberty. They look like 13 year olds and always will. Have a read of some accounts of people who this happened to and later came to regret it. It's heartbreaking. If you miss the window to grow, it doesn't resume as normal years later

The idea that chemically castrating physiologically healthy teens and preteens causes them no long term harms is utterly bonkers.

The 'decades of use' of PBs have involved delaying puberty until a child enters the typical age in which sexual maturation takes place. Where this has been researched, few adverse effects have been noted

I wouldn't say 'few'...

https://www.statnews.com/2017/02/02/lupron-puberty-children-health-problems/

And in any case, the drugs used have maximum time periods of use BECAUSE of the effects they have. I mean, they have been used to actually sterilise people. So to say they don't sterilise some people is quite the claim. I'd like to see the non biased study on that.

My parents were incredibly sexist when I was a child. And as I've said before I think that this contributed to issues with my brother. They said things like they needed to do more things with a strong male role model around.

I don't think anyone can deny that Musk is like this.

My parents ended up supporting and trashing me in the process of doing that. Because despite their prejudices they loved my brother.

I can see genuine hurt on the part of Musk. He's lashing out in a way that only comes from pain. It's directed at those who harmed his son as well as his son. But it's a reaction that still shows he deeply cares about his son in some way.

Yes it's laced with narcissism. But it's still someone who cares.

I suspect that Musk is involved with his younger kids and does make effort with them. Precisely because of what has gone before. Musk is unlikely to take full responsibility just like other parents who have transitioned their kids. But he has acknowledged it was wrong which is something more than many.

It's clearly a dysfunctional relationship. And transition is linked directly to dysfunctional family dynamics as a form of trauma.

I would be more surprised if Musk had been fully involved.

My point is, that I think Musk does care and probably is a better father to the younger kids and is trying to learn from his mistakes.

The fact both men have been betrayed by gender idealogs shouldn't be lost in this blame game. I suspect that there would be a rift in the family regardless but gender has exploited this crack in the relationship and feed upon it like a parasite.

We know that cults target vulnerable people who do not feel they fit in and are struggling.

You can argue all day about Musk as a man, but this point still holds up all day long, and we should be safeguarding kids from dysfunctional families of all kinds from this ideology. It doesn't matter that Musk is a megalomaniac - society still should have protected his son from exploitation in this way.

The fact that people are happy to over look this, whilst simultaneously doing a character assassination of Musk and how they would disown him as a parent for homophobia without comment on the homophobic and sexist nature this ideology pushes and entrenches gets me.

Musk's son, has decided to embrace those values. The ones he criticises his father for. He's framing them in a different way, but he supports affirmation only and he lives life in a way that is entirely based on sexism. He is supportive of the authoritarianism of the movement.

He is the mirror of his father. And they are probably far more alike than either will admit. And that's almost certainly part of the problem.

It's funny how theres not the same calls to go none contact with family members who actively participate in the erasure of lesbians. The double standards need to be highlighted.

The Trojan horsing of gay rights by trans activists and using homophobia as a shield whilst participating in homophobia isn't cool. Or inclusive. Or healthy.

Lots of people seem to misunderstand or not know about 'critical periods' whereby the development of a skill or characteristic is most readily acquired, and if missed, it might not be acquired or fully acquired outside of that window of time.

The 'decades of use' of PBs have involved delaying puberty until a child enters the typical age in which sexual maturation takes place. Where this has been researched, few adverse effects have been noted.

The use of PB to stop sexual maturation naturally occurring within the typical time frame has not been researched. We don't know if/what critical windows exist in relation to sexual maturation. There is strong evidence to show there are critical windows in brain development during adolescence and the impact of puberty blockers on this has not been researched and the research linked to use for precocious puberty is not of any use with this.

Furthermore, there are significant issues in relation to the rationale behind PBs providing 'time to think'. Significant neurological changes happen during puberty, particularly in relation to thinking and reasoning skills. If development in these areas is paused through PBs, it follows that 'time to think' whilst taking PBs will be impaired in comparison with 'time to think' without. The idea of pausing puberty to allow someone to grow up a bit before making a decision seems moot, if you give them drugs that stop them from growing up!

No, I'm sure someone wouldn't say these things with zero evidence. After all, it's been decades.

Not a peep. I think we can safely assume it doesn't exist.

Excuse the maths I meant to say 12 to 16 😂

You'd be crazy as a feminist not to vote for Trump, the democrats are infested with the woke mind virus which makes them intent on destroying women and girls.

He might have views on transgender rights but he is still apeshit and “not a nice man” for supporting Trump.

Surely any feminist would be crazy to vote for Trump.

OK let's say 13 to 16 then. 4 years.

If there's decades of usage where's the research. Is there a single paper that shows that puberty resumes AS NORMAL when you come off the blockers that have been prescribed to block puberty in normal physically healthy adolescents.

There’s a PB thread? Please can you send the link? Does it include CSHs? Asking for a friend.