Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Review of suicides and gender dysphoria at the Tavistock and Portman NHS Foundation Trust

161 replies

Signalbox · 19/07/2024 16:39

Some very good news. Transpires that Jolyon's claim of increased suicides since puberty blockers were banned is incorrect.

Review of Suicides and Gender Dysphoria at the Tavi and Portman NHS Trust: Independent Report.

By Professor Louis Appleby, University of Manchester
Department of Health and Social Care adviser on suicide prevention

Aim of this review
I have reviewed data provided by NHS England (NHSE) on suicides by young patients of the gender services at the Tavistock and Portman NHS Foundation Trust, based on an audit at the trust. The specific aim is to examine evidence for a large rise in suicides claimed by campaigners.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/review-of-suicides-and-gender-dysphoria-at-the-tavistock-and-portman-nhs-foundation-trust/review-of-suicides-and-gender-dysphoria-at-the-tavistock-and-portman-nhs-foundation-trust-independent-report

Review of suicides and gender dysphoria at the Tavistock and Portman NHS Foundation Trust: independent report

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/review-of-suicides-and-gender-dysphoria-at-the-tavistock-and-portman-nhs-foundation-trust/review-of-suicides-and-gender-dysphoria-at-the-tavistock-and-portman-nhs-foundation-trust-independent-report

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
GailBlancheViola · 19/07/2024 20:09

What you are left with is a need to balance risks - of letting ideologues drive through dangerous measures without public pushback or pointing out that the measures are indeed dangerous

The irony of this is just off the fucking scale.

PurpleSparkledPixie · 19/07/2024 20:09

VotingNotGloating · 19/07/2024 19:40

And in the Guardian! VERY un-Guardian-like tone, which closes out with quote from LGB Alliance. Jaw - meet Floor!

www.theguardian.com/society/article/2024/jul/19/review-dismisses-claims-youth-suicide-rose-after-nhs-curbed-puberty-blockers

Thank you for the link. And wowsers for LGB ! 😮

Kate Barker, chief executive of the LGB Alliance, said: “It’s distressing that the completely unevidenced claims of increased suicidality were allowed to take root, and given credence by people in public life who should have known better than to play politics with such an emotive issue.

“Now the whole world can see these claims for what they are: a cynical attempt to spread misinformation to serve a dangerous and homophobic ideology.”

ArabellaScott · 19/07/2024 20:07

'32. I want to promise to those many, many trans people and families who thank me for my advocacy: I am not going away. Not until Wes Streeting is more interested in what you want than the billionaires and the right wing media he so transparently courts.

  1. Where, as will be the case, I have got the balance wrong, to the trans community I apologise. This is a tough tough job: facing down the Trumps and the Putins and the Murdochs and the billionaire and the Rothermeres. And now, devastatingly, a Labour Health Secretary too.

Have you noticed how all the wrong people are clapping, Keir? (All tweets in my personal capacity.)'

ArabellaScott · 19/07/2024 20:05

BettyFilous · 19/07/2024 20:04

What doesn’t come across from the posted tweets is the wall of screengrabs from emails and other text. As my family would say, he’s gone off on one and it’s a doozy. Someone please wrestle his phone out of his hands and send him on a digital detox for a few days.

I know, I'm sorry, I just couldn't be arsed.

We'd better archive that thread, though.

BettyFilous · 19/07/2024 20:04

What doesn’t come across from the posted tweets is the wall of screengrabs from emails and other text. As my family would say, he’s gone off on one and it’s a doozy. Someone please wrestle his phone out of his hands and send him on a digital detox for a few days.

Signalbox · 19/07/2024 20:03

Fenlandia · 19/07/2024 19:54

What a pompous ass! It's a government report not a tabloid piece, they're not obliged to run it by him before publication.

Does "I have difficulties with the figures" mean "I'm sad they didn't find enough dead kids"?

Oh I misread it as saying "I have difficulty with figures" i.e. I'm not that good at maths.😂 I thought that was an odd thing for him to say.

OP posts:
Igneococcus · 19/07/2024 20:02

Oh sorry, only just noticed it's been shared already.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 19/07/2024 20:01

Fenlandia · 19/07/2024 19:54

What a pompous ass! It's a government report not a tabloid piece, they're not obliged to run it by him before publication.

Does "I have difficulties with the figures" mean "I'm sad they didn't find enough dead kids"?

Honestly and very sadly I really think it does

these ppl clearly never stop to ask themselves if they are in fact the baddies

ArabellaScott · 19/07/2024 19:59

I mean, he's still going on.

ArabellaScott · 19/07/2024 19:58

I see my tweets about the effects of Wes Streeting's ban on puberty blockers on younger trans people have been criticised by the DHSC’s adviser on suicides

  1. What is undoubtedly true is that Victoria Atkins was warned by her own civil servants about the ban on puberty blockers posing “a high risk of self-harm and suicide” and Wes Streeting followed his predecessor in ignoring that advice.
  1. Before publishing my thread (below) we went to the Tavistock and Portman with these numbers for a response. Other journalists went to NHS England for a response. Neither denied the numbers and both declined to comment.
  1. Here are the emails we sent. Of course, had the Tavistock (or NHS) responded denying our figures we would have engaged with their response. But they did not. They have sought to avoid transparency.
  1. Under Wes Streeting, DHSC seems to hold itself to a far lower standard. It did not give us or me any advance warning that it was putting out this statement. Given the very direct attack on us made by a Government Department this is, to put it mildly, surprising.
  1. It is absolutely true that they have better data. Many have made FOIA requests of NHSE and Tavistock which have been rebuffed. This is not transparency. And it is of course why we put our numbers to them - to see what they had to say. And they chose to say nothing.
  1. I can't help but wonder how these attempts to block FOIA data and ignore requests for comment sit with this statement from the DHSC’s adviser on suicides? Many of us have been after data for years - but we have been consistently blocked and employees threatened.
  1. Still, I have profound difficulties with his figures and analysis. Let me set out some of the reasons why. First, the analysis is surprising given that less than a month ago NHS England denied (in response to a FOIA request) it held the data that DHSC says it analysed.
  1. Second, we seem to be comparing apples and pears. The DHSC adviser is talking about the small group of “current and former GIDS patients” whereas my figures are primarily directed to the larger group of “those on the waiting list”.
  1. Of course, a consequences of NHSE largely closing off healthcare to young trans people in 12/20 is more on waiting lists and less patients. It’s hard to improve upon the Tavistock’s own description of the effects (about GICs but the point is the same).
  1. Third, although I took my numbers from two whistleblowers (I now have a third) I triangulated it with contemporaneous public evidence of the Tavistock’s own minutes. That evidence was published before the Tories (and now Wes Streeting) sought to weaponise trans healthcare.

  2. What does that contemporaneous evidence show? First, it discloses only one “apparent suicide” in GIDs in the three years before the shutters came down in 12/20. If there were the higher numbers asserted by DHSC they do not appear in the minutes.

  3. What about in the three years after the appalling Bell decision from 12/20 which started all of this? Well, here is what the Minutes show.

  4. More snips here. Taken together these numbers are broadly consistent with what I was told by the two whistleblowers I refer to in my thread (I am now waiting to speak to a third who I understand to confirm the story of the first two).

  5. I also hold a contemporaneous email from 1 February 2023 (I have deleted the names) which refers to 11 deaths in two years since the NHS pulled down the shutters on trans healthcare. This is also consistent with 16 deaths over three years.

  6. DHSC explicitly only analyses suicides at the Tavistock and so it ignores that care for young trans people passed over to NHS Arden & GEM CSU in (I believe) early 2023. Any suicides at the CSU DHSC does not even claim to have counted.

  7. DHSC also does not take into account that, as para 5.65 of the Cass report acknowledges, a trigger for suicides is young people moving from GIDS to the adult service (GICS). Those suicides are of young trans people but will not be counted in the GIDS data.

  8. I also understand from one source (I can responsibly put it no higher than that) that the DHSC data only counts those where the suicide has been confirmed by the coroner. Whereas the Tavistock Minutes reports “probable” and “suspected” and “likely” suicides.

  9. This is an incredibly important point when it comes to counting recent deaths by suicide given the very lengthy delays in holding inquests. Eg we are supporting the family of someone who hung themselves in 2022 where the inquest has been delayed. https://leighday.co.uk/news/blog/2022

  10. There is also no denying the emails I have from terrified parents who are, eg, sleeping on the floor of their child's bedroom to watch over them. Or the reports from NGOs working in the sector of multiple attempts in the immediate aftermath of the ban.

  11. Wes Streeting will not know about this material because he closed his mind to it. The papers in our court case show that, before banning puberty blockers, his predecessor chose not to consult with organisations representing trans people or their families. Nor did Wes.

  12. What about the other points that the DHSC adviser makes, about speaking about suicide? He says: “Guidance has been developed by Samaritans, originally for the news media but with wider applicability to any public discussion of suicide.”

  13. The difficulty is, of course, with the asterisked phrase. Of course, those (including Wes Streeting) who will not hear from trans people and support a dangerous ban that even Hilary Cass did not recommend want to stop discussion about what their measures really mean

  14. Wes Streeting’s predecessor was warned repeatedly by her civil servants and the NHS that the ban was dangerous. I have set out some of those warnings in this thread (which he has ignored because it is inconvenient to his case).

  15. But let me single out from that thread, this image from advice given to his predecessor, of “a high risk of self-harm and suicide”. This is what civil servants were advising, Wes Streeting decided to ignore it, and this point must be made by those who care about trans kids

  16. To fail to point out publicly that measures are generating a “high risk of suicide” when a Minister is bent on introducing them whatever she or he is advised about the risks is now how you diminish the risks of suicide. It just isn'

  17. There is no way to put pressure on people like Streeting without speaking a language they understand: political pain. I have shown the NHS and the Tavistock sought to avoid the evidence coming out. And that Streeting did not engage with it before implementing the regulations

  18. What you are left with is a need to balance risks - of letting ideologues drive through dangerous measures without public pushback or pointing out that the measures are indeed dangerous

  19. But you don’t need to take my word for it because I wrote to the Samaritans about it. Here is my email to them of late 2022: “The 'debate' we seem to be having focuses on the risks of affirming but... ignores the risks of resisting.”

  20. And here is their reply: “You are right in thinking that our guidelines are being misunderstood and probably sometimes deliberately so on this particular matter” (again I have deleted names).
    ...

  21. For what it's worth I have continued to ask for advice on how to deal with the matter responsibly, including this week. On this occasion, perhaps wisely given that speaking out for trans people generates punishment beatings, they did not engage.

  22. It is very hard to balance campaigning to protect the most targeted and vulnerable in the country from wicked ideologues. And to none of us is it given always to get the balance right. But failing to speak of the harm that ideology generates is not the answer

https://www.leighday.co.uk/news/blog/2022-blogs/justice-delayed-is-justice-denied-inquests-and-the-impact-of-systemic-delays/

https://t.co/EUSiCfW95P

OP posts:
Fenlandia · 19/07/2024 19:54

OvaHere · 19/07/2024 19:35

Jo Maugham, executive director of the Good Law Project, said: “I was not contacted in advance of the statement being released and will obviously need time to respond. I do have difficulties with the figures and analysis and will respond in due course.”

What a pompous ass! It's a government report not a tabloid piece, they're not obliged to run it by him before publication.

Does "I have difficulties with the figures" mean "I'm sad they didn't find enough dead kids"?

Mirahelp · 19/07/2024 19:53

As the mother of a vulnerable barely over 18 who has purchased hormones online on the flimsiest of self diagnosis with zero medical oversight I am grimly pleased to see both Webberley & Maugham slapped down today.

GailBlancheViola · 19/07/2024 19:51

OvaHere · 19/07/2024 19:35

Jo Maugham, executive director of the Good Law Project, said: “I was not contacted in advance of the statement being released and will obviously need time to respond. I do have difficulties with the figures and analysis and will respond in due course.”

Dear me, they didn't contact the Messiah on all things trans how very remiss of them.

ArabellaScott · 19/07/2024 19:51

A long thread in which he doubles down.

'Under Wes Streeting, DHSC seems to hold itself to a far lower standard. It did not give us or me any advance warning that it was putting out this statement. Given the very direct attack on us made by a Government Department this is, to put it mildly, surprising.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 19/07/2024 19:49

OvaHere · 19/07/2024 19:35

Jo Maugham, executive director of the Good Law Project, said: “I was not contacted in advance of the statement being released and will obviously need time to respond. I do have difficulties with the figures and analysis and will respond in due course.”

You were a tax lawyer!! I’d assume figures and analysis were very much you’re thing jolyon

ArabellaScott · 19/07/2024 19:43

July the 17th:

'don't underestimate the political tail of @wesstreeting's decision. His colleagues will slowly be coming to terms with him locking them into a future of bereaved parents tipping ashes outside No 10 and a revival of mass die-ins wherever they go'

'...as someone who talks to and works with a lot of parents of trans children, I have no doubt that the root cause of the deaths of young trans people is transphobia not people talking about deaths'

July the 19th:

'I do have difficulties with the figures and analysis'

x.com

https://x.com/wesstreeting

VotingNotGloating · 19/07/2024 19:42

Ah, jaw retrieved. Opinion, further down in Guardian, from Aidan Kelly.

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/article/2024/jul/19/transgender-children-ban-puberty-blockers-wes-streeting

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 19/07/2024 19:42

"A report by the government’s adviser on suicide prevention also found that the claims – made by the campaign group the Good Law Project – were not supported by data and could prompt children under the age of 18 to take their own life."

Ouch! From the Grauniad article linked above.

ItsAllGoingToBeFine · 19/07/2024 19:41

Jolyon says that the government only looked at GIDS figures, when he was talking about all children in waiting lists.

VotingNotGloating · 19/07/2024 19:40

And in the Guardian! VERY un-Guardian-like tone, which closes out with quote from LGB Alliance. Jaw - meet Floor!

www.theguardian.com/society/article/2024/jul/19/review-dismisses-claims-youth-suicide-rose-after-nhs-curbed-puberty-blockers

OvaHere · 19/07/2024 19:35

Jo Maugham, executive director of the Good Law Project, said: “I was not contacted in advance of the statement being released and will obviously need time to respond. I do have difficulties with the figures and analysis and will respond in due course.”

OvaHere · 19/07/2024 19:34

It's currently top item on the Times home page.