Council worker sacked over pronouns

The Judge wasn't buying that either.

I mean, there's cutting your nose off to spite your face, and then there's this!

It's admirable to be principled, but that has to be tempered with being sensible, i'd wager.

She had no choice but to sack him because she didn't like his choice of pronouns. And/or said choice made the policy look ridiculous. Which it is .He was invited to display pronouns. He accepted the invitation. She sacked him. Pour encourager les autres. And because she can. This nonsense is a sociopaths dream. Not that she is necessarily a sociopath - maybe just a well meaning dupe unsuited to management.

Remember Bill?

Did you see my question @Christinapple ?

If your hypothetical male engineer transitions to a woman, what is he identifying with? What makes him think he's a woman?

Sorry if this has been said earlier in the thread but this decision should be a warning re the many threads there have been on FWR about being asked to include pronouns at work, should I agree.

And on many threads, posters have suggested very amusing alternatives.

However this court outcome seems to suggest that what we might find an apt response on FWR could get us the sack if put into practice at work.

I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if the Maya case has actually led to more firings.

A misunderstanding of it may have led to some thinking they are "invincible" and can't be fired, so they act like the gentleman being discussed.

"Wait, what do you mean the Maya case doesn't cover me, does that mean I can't sue the Council for a million pounds?"

Or John 11:35 might be more apt.

Would it be a fair analogy to say, it's like if a manager had suggested people might like to put Bible verses they find encouraging in their email signatures, and he put Luke 13:28,And there will be much weeping and gnashing of teeth.
?

During the hearing, he asked for his name to be used instead of he/him (no tips on how to form the accusative case, though), and the Tribunal agreed to it (whilst apologising in advance for any slip-ups 😆).

Clearly, proper nouns are fine. So common nouns and compound nouns don't seem like that much of a stretch.

If he'd gone for adverbs, however.....

It's the $64,000 question.

Never gets answered.

Other than some woolly nonsense about gender identity not being the same as your sex. But ask about gender identity and what it means?

Crickets.

Surely the whole "trans" stuff is about stereotypes? If you use the pronouns traditionally associated with the opposite sex, that is because you believe in the stereotypes of that sex and wish to conform to those stereotypes. Otherwise what the heck is it about?

I don't think yiu can make arguments about "actual pronouns" and reasonable expectations of your coworkers considering this particular bureaucracy seems to have explicitly suggested "ze/zier" as an example of possible pronouns 😂

I'll need to have a lie down in an effort to come to terms with the absolute horror of it.

Agree wholeheartedly - as a gender non conforming female engineer that never felt any need to (a) be one of the boys or (b) pretend to be a different sex / not have a sex.

It's a shocker isn't it!

Very much ditto to this. I'll conform to dress code when I must, but left to my own devices I'm very much gender non conforming. In other words, a perfectly normal woman

A man calling himself a man.

How dare he.

So the reasons for sacking him are that he was 'arsey' 'twatty' and 'a dick'... I've had a look at the laws on dismissing someone from their job, and can't find 'arsey' 'twatty' and 'being a dick' listed as valid reasons for dismissal.

You might be muttering 'Unfortunately🙄' under your breath, given that we've all had to work at some time with awkward so-and-sos, but dismissal has to be for a valid reason
.
Maybe the Council had other reasons for wanting to get rid of him, but they picked a dodgy one to run with..

So you can't be a gender non-conforming female and instead have to pretend you're neither sex? Sounds pretty regressive to me.

Signed woman with short hair who is gender non conforming and is sick of this sexist shit.

Do you think they transitioned because they think only men can be nurses?

Does "transitioning" mean emulating the opposite sex characteristics? I thought it was to do with gender identity which is around feminine and masculine "inner" traits?

I'm always so confused about this!

If a man isn't 'a male' then why does any female adopt male physical features if they feel they're a man?

If your hypothetical male engineer transitions to a woman, what is he identifying with? What makes him think he's a woman?

So a male engineer who transitions and changes their sex characteristics to female believes that men can’t be engineers?
There are quite a few trans men/ trans masculine nurses. Do you think they transitioned because they think only men can be nurses?

There are increasing numbers of lesbians and AFAB non-binary people using they/ them. They don’t identify as men but they are gender non conforming enough that they don’t wish to be referred to as she/her. I don’t think what they are doing has anything to do with believing in culturally assigned sex roles. It just doesn’t fit the narrative you want to believe.

Maybe it would come down to - if you disagree with the ideology, a disagreement which is now legally protected, is it sufficient to refuse pronouns or can you take a more active stance if asked.

Because refusing email pronouns is not stating a belief - or lack of one. Putting your pronouns in, is.

Pronouns in, or pronouns out, are not at all equal.

Unless there is a pronoun equivalent that says I don't believe in gender ideology, what is the equal action one can take?

Same here!!

How was he being a dick??

I'd garden for him!

He only stated the truth!