Jolyon jumps the shark - is trans a cult?

This is why #NoDebate worked for them for some time and why, now daylight is gradually dawning, this aggressive, over-emotional, and IMO dangerous agent provocateur is publicly losing his shit.

Kind of ironic isn't it really. They wanted No Debate.

What they actually got was this being one of the main debates of the general election this year!

And it's not going away.

I was puzzled at how Jolly Jolyon arrived at his conclusions. For anyone like me who was puzzled by this, there's a reasonably good breakdown here:
https://archive.is/XI6sR about what's going on and how there are many who would disagree with his information and interpretations.

One of the hallmarks of cults and mass movements is their goalpost-moving. If Streeting had come out with a different statement or policy it would not meet with JoMo’s approval because the future and the goalposts of the movement are always changing, and in fact, little would make the TRAs happier than some people committing suicide.

The demand of some parents of trans-identifying children is that their children undergo treatment to change sex. This is impossible. Which means that it is literally impossible to satisfy them and whatever you concede will just lead to a demand for more.

A response to selected highlights of ButterflyHatched's long post:

I would also recommend reflecting on how happy you would be to be sentenced to a mandatory course of cross-sex hormones for the next several years.

I would be mentally and physiologically damaged by cross sex hormones; they trash the female body. This is not comparable to going through the normal puberty for your body, which is physiologically the best thing for it.

younger children continuing to be prescribed this exact same treatment routinely

If you mean children being prescribed puberty blockers for the rare condition of precocious puberty, this is evidence-based medicine. The exteme side effects are known, so doctors and parents can factor them into their decisions. As this is "proper" medicine, specialists can constantly review the data without activists making dramatic threats.

a 40 year-old treatment that addresses the permanent changes they are facing

This treatment does not have the evidence-based rigour of other branches of medicine. The shocking lack of follow-on studies at adult clinics, whether deliberate or just slack, means it is dishonest and unethical to pretend to children and their parents that blockers have the same solid evidence base as medication they might be prescribed for asthma or diabetes.

an incredibly dangerous, rash decision forced into place without solid justification

The justification was the 4 year report by an eminent specialist which highlighted the lack of evidence, and indeed the lack of interest in evidence. Who wants to be the Health Secretary that pretends the next Thalidomide isn't happening? The emergency ban was the least worst option.

Describing JK Rowling's defence of women's rights, child safeguarding and evidence-based medicine as a hobby she got carried away with is just embarrassing.

' They can't win ; there's no future in a death cult'. Some prescient soul wrote that about ISIS and I take comfort from that.

I wonder at this point whether he is genuinely mentally unwell. Although part of me finds this kind of deranged outburst funny, there's another part that thinks he is perhaps reaching the stage where he needs professional help. There is nothing normal about this kind of behaviour.

That’s an absolutely appalling tweet! He should be ashamed of himself.

We know that a considerable number of gender questioning children have Autism. We also know that autism is a condition that can be inherited.

I'm actually not enjoying the spectacle of a middle aged man having a public meltdown, though I will admit it's useful.

Helen Joyce's point about true believers is particularly prescient when it describes people who have a tendency towards obsessive thinking.

Is it legal, or was it, for children ( girls) under 18 to be given testosterone, as was suggested in JM'S daughter's case?

Keira Bell was prescribed testosterone at 17.

I would recommend reflecting on the impact of suddenly removing the sole legal means of treating a preventable source of intense lifelong distress without providing any alternative option in any other area of healthcare.

I would also recommend reflecting on how happy you would be to be sentenced to a mandatory course of cross-sex hormones for the next several years. It's only a few years, right? It's not like there would be any permanent changes that would impact your quality of life, so what's the problem? You might be able to have counselling to help you get used to the new voice you are now stuck with, if there are NHS resources available.

Whether you try and explain this away as hyperbolic catastrophising teenagers or brainwashed death cult members, the sad truth of the situation is that children are being sent a message by the government that the best - often only - ray of hope they currently have for the future is being actively and comprehensively banned for poorly defined, deeply controversial and highly inconsistent reasons.

This is despite their older peers being allowed to continue treatment due to having managed to get a foot in the door just before the ban. This is also despite younger children continuing to be prescribed this exact same treatment routinely, and other children who have more visible phenotype variations being allowed treatment for their conditions - which even sometimes include gender incongruence.

Bear in mind that this is the treatment that is prescribed as a concessionary measure in lieu of immediately issuing cross-sex hormones as requested by the vast majority of gender incongruent children - which would allow the retention of developmental parity with peers and nullify any bone density concerns arising from long-term suppression.

It doesn't add up. Are GnRH agonists so unsafe that they have to be immediately and completely banned as an emergency measure? If so, why are they still being issued to any children? Why are we allowing any drug that affects the LH release mechanism? Why only and specifically this one kind of child that just so happens to serve as the focal point for the culture war?

How do you explain to a child that although there is a 40 year-old treatment that addresses the permanent changes they are facing - that they did not ask for and will only be able to partially undo with years of expensive and painful surgery - they aren't allowed it now because JK Rowling got a little carried away with the new hobby she found half a decade ago, and money speaks so loudly that politicians are forced to listen? That despite the people who banned their future - no matter how elegantly you try to frame the blow - finally being gone from government, the next bunch are actually choosing to make it worse?

While I would vastly prefer that we were living in a social paradigm that made it possible, it is unfortunately the case that you cannot divorce suicide from the subject of healthcare for gender incongruent youth in the UK in 2024. We have been trying for decades, and came closer than we ever had previously circa-2017 just before the culture war kicked into gear.

The two sadly remain intrinsically and inescapably linked, and will continue to be for as long as this cultural context remains so deeply harmful. The people targeted at the focal point of the reactionary turn that has obliterated all the nuance and compassion we had painstakingly achieved in discourse simply don't have the luxury of getting to choose whether or not to engage with it, because it has now quite literally become a matter of life and death.

I'm not surprised that Jolyon is so frustrated. Every single person I know who has a transgender friend, family member or loved one is reeling from this callous move to perpetuate what was already an incredibly dangerous, rash decision forced into place without solid justification in a way that made it impossible to even seriously discuss or challenge.

I was speaking to an NHS clinician yesterday in a professional context who was having to bite her tongue at what is an astonishingly irresponsible decision made by a man who has no background in healthcare and no relevant experience, in defiance of established international protocol and the advice of subject matter experts with relevant experience, alongside an evident personal conflict of interest.

Wes Streeting will not have to see the impact of his decision on the daily lives of those it affects.

Their families and loved ones will.

There really should be legal consequences for inciting suicide

Is it legal, or was it, for children ( girls) under 18 to be given testosterone, as was suggested in JM'S daughter's case?

Terrified of what?

Likelihood child is simply same-sex attracted?
Likelihood child would reach adulthood with fertility intact?
Likelihood child would become adult with sexual function (capable of orgasm)?
Likelihood child would not suffer osteoporosis?
Likelihood child would not have stunted genitalia?

users.ox.ac.uk/~sfos0060/Biggs_ExperimentPubertyBlockers.pdf

Why haven’t animal rights activists gone crazy over the fox clubbing incident? Or did they, and I missed something?

Just wondering how he didn’t get cancelled for that.

I agree that the ‘die-ins’ and ‘ashes’ tweet shows he is becoming increasingly unhinged.

One thing I don't get is that part of parenting is to teach your children perspective, and that we should try not let ourselves be governed by painful emotions. Most people want their children to learn resilience and be as best equipped as they can be for life's difficulties. Trans activism seems to do the opposite by maximising and inflating the distress, and is priming children to be victims, that disagreement is hate, and that suicide is a likely response to adversity. I find it unfathomable.

He has a trans child doesn't he? Maybe he is terrified for them and trying to throw his weight around to get his way. Or maybe he is the modern day Adrian Harrop. Meh. I'm not sure it's that relevant but I hope he isn't having a family crisis as I wouldn't wish that on anyone.

It's probably been said, but someone who clubs an animal to death and rather than thinking "fucking hell, what came over me, I probably need help" thinks "I know, I'll take to Twitter and tell the world about this", is undoubtedly unhinged

There are other country's in Europe who have banned or are pulling right back on prescribing PB's and I haven't heard that there's been 'mass suicides' because of it.

Instead of making 'Hate' a crime maybe they should make 'Bareface Lying' a criminal offence, with huge fines and hours and hours of community service as punishment.

Get away with your unpalatable facts and logic Spaniel

😆😆😆

a revival of mass die-ins wherever they go

Before puberty blockers came into use for this, were there mass die-ins of gender-questioning youth? Did the suicide rate increase or decrease with their use, and by how much? I thought that one of the points made by the Cass report was that children's mental health is not demonstrably improved by transition.

He's a grotesque, nasty bully who I'd really not want to meet on a dark night.

It didn't end well for the last creature that met him on a dark night.

Remember, if you're trapped and struggling, lethal violence is the answer. Honestly though, who would do that? Without even taking the time to get dressed? At Christmas!?

He needs arresting and putting through courts for incitement
Hope he skids on some fox shit and lands on his face

Generally because they have not met any real difficulties or resistance in their lives. White, well off, privately educated men. Nice smoothed pathway in life and they are not used to swallowing their rage or smoothing thing over like other groups have to.

I have Hoffer’s book on my ‘To Read’ list so your description has made me move it to the top of the list 👍

And yes to the descriptions of this JM behaviour being abusive and narc-fuelled rage - how do people with these personality traits hold in their bad temper for long enough to achieve high-status jobs?

Very true. Of course I meant even worse though.