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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Jolyon jumps the shark - is trans a cult?

434 replies

CantDealwithChristmas · 17/07/2024 12:46

Jolyon 'fox killer' Maugham has been on one for 6 days straight now. It all started with Streeting's PBs ban and ratcheted up when JoMo sent Streeting a list of 25 questions which Streeting ignored - and on a Sunday too. As of yesterday JoMo, a KC (though Guido Fawkes reported his licence expired in May), was encouraging people to break the law by accessing banned PB drugs from abroad. As of today he has well and truly jumped the shark with the below, horrible post on X.

My question to this board is why do TRAs feel the need to ratchet up the emotional temperature of the debate so high? Why do they so quickly devolve the conversation to death and suicide? It's an ugly strain that runs right through all TRA talking points. I personally think TRA is an eschatological cult and the focus on death is a intrinsic part of that. Others may think it's all about emotional blackmail.

Either way, please use this thread to discuss JoMo, Streeting's unaccounably cruel ignoring of him, and TRA emotional hysteria / threats in general at this crucial time just after the PB ban was announced.

EDIT - could not upload the screenshot of JoMo's post but it reads as follows:

"And don't underestimate the political tail of Wes Streeting's decision. His colleagues will slowly be coming to terms with him locking them into a future of bereaved parents tipping ashes outside Number 10 and a revival of mass die-ins wherever they go."

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17
Citrusandginger · 17/07/2024 19:46

I would recommend reflecting on the impact of suddenly removing the sole legal means of treating a preventable source of intense lifelong distress without providing any alternative option in any other area of healthcare

And I would recommend finding out what is really causing the intense distress. And treating it.

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2024 19:46

Its funny that theres a groundswell of evidence to say that puberty blockers are bad. And there's concerns about cultlike behaviour.

Then you get someone come along and say that EVERYONE they know thinks its awful that puberty blockers are getting banned for kids.

I'm definitely not surrounded by people who only share my beliefs. Itd be weird if that was the case.

Shortshriftandlethal · 17/07/2024 19:40

It is not difficult to imagine the conversations between a 'trans affirmative' parent, or gender professional, and their child or 'patient' in the light of Wes Streeting's ban....

If these adults have been embracing, and even actively pushing, the idea that 'being trans' /disturbed/upset/incongruent is a problem that can be solved via puberty blockers and cross sex hormones - then they can only present this news to their charges as a devastatingly cruel blow from an uncompassionate and callous government.

How could they begin to approach the actual given reasons for the ban to these children...That there is no evidence that these treatments make you feel any better in the long term, and that there are plenty of potential physical harms that they can actively cause.... harms of the sort that the child can not even begin to imagine, or comprehend, at their young and impressionable age.

That they, as responsible adults, may well be guilty of gross negligence (disguised as love)...and that they are fallible human beings like anyone else?

GailBlancheViola · 17/07/2024 19:27

Quite @Shortshriftandlethal because it is a false promise based on a false premise. There is no such thing as sex change.

Add to that the reliance on other people buying into, affirming and validating the lie that has been sold

It is cruel.

Shortshriftandlethal · 17/07/2024 19:18

......And even those that persist for a few years, or maybe even for ten years or more, eventually come to realise that 'transition' and medicalisation has not solved their essential dysphoric feelings or their mental health issues.

GailBlancheViola · 17/07/2024 19:11

How do you explain to a child that although there is a 40 year-old treatment that addresses the permanent changes they are facing - that they did not ask for and will only be able to partially undo with years of expensive and painful surgery -

A treatment being used not for what it was intended you mean?

Puberty is not an optional extra, no-one specifically 'asks' for it it happens as it is a vital part of human development and the it is not only the body that develops it is also the brain and you go through the puberty for the sex you are.

Why would anyone want to trap children in a pre-pubertal body with prepubertal brain cognition? And then fill that body with hormones their body is not designed for?

And of course there is the wealth of evidence that those distressed children who are not being used as experimental guinea pigs come through their distress and accept their bodies.

Shortshriftandlethal · 17/07/2024 19:11

ButterflyHatched · 17/07/2024 16:36

I would recommend reflecting on the impact of suddenly removing the sole legal means of treating a preventable source of intense lifelong distress without providing any alternative option in any other area of healthcare.

I would also recommend reflecting on how happy you would be to be sentenced to a mandatory course of cross-sex hormones for the next several years. It's only a few years, right? It's not like there would be any permanent changes that would impact your quality of life, so what's the problem? You might be able to have counselling to help you get used to the new voice you are now stuck with, if there are NHS resources available.

Whether you try and explain this away as hyperbolic catastrophising teenagers or brainwashed death cult members, the sad truth of the situation is that children are being sent a message by the government that the best - often only - ray of hope they currently have for the future is being actively and comprehensively banned for poorly defined, deeply controversial and highly inconsistent reasons.

This is despite their older peers being allowed to continue treatment due to having managed to get a foot in the door just before the ban. This is also despite younger children continuing to be prescribed this exact same treatment routinely, and other children who have more visible phenotype variations being allowed treatment for their conditions - which even sometimes include gender incongruence.

Bear in mind that this is the treatment that is prescribed as a concessionary measure in lieu of immediately issuing cross-sex hormones as requested by the vast majority of gender incongruent children - which would allow the retention of developmental parity with peers and nullify any bone density concerns arising from long-term suppression.

It doesn't add up. Are GnRH agonists so unsafe that they have to be immediately and completely banned as an emergency measure? If so, why are they still being issued to any children? Why are we allowing any drug that affects the LH release mechanism? Why only and specifically this one kind of child that just so happens to serve as the focal point for the culture war?

How do you explain to a child that although there is a 40 year-old treatment that addresses the permanent changes they are facing - that they did not ask for and will only be able to partially undo with years of expensive and painful surgery - they aren't allowed it now because JK Rowling got a little carried away with the new hobby she found half a decade ago, and money speaks so loudly that politicians are forced to listen? That despite the people who banned their future - no matter how elegantly you try to frame the blow - finally being gone from government, the next bunch are actually choosing to make it worse?

While I would vastly prefer that we were living in a social paradigm that made it possible, it is unfortunately the case that you cannot divorce suicide from the subject of healthcare for gender incongruent youth in the UK in 2024. We have been trying for decades, and came closer than we ever had previously circa-2017 just before the culture war kicked into gear.

The two sadly remain intrinsically and inescapably linked, and will continue to be for as long as this cultural context remains so deeply harmful. The people targeted at the focal point of the reactionary turn that has obliterated all the nuance and compassion we had painstakingly achieved in discourse simply don't have the luxury of getting to choose whether or not to engage with it, because it has now quite literally become a matter of life and death.

I'm not surprised that Jolyon is so frustrated. Every single person I know who has a transgender friend, family member or loved one is reeling from this callous move to perpetuate what was already an incredibly dangerous, rash decision forced into place without solid justification in a way that made it impossible to even seriously discuss or challenge.

I was speaking to an NHS clinician yesterday in a professional context who was having to bite her tongue at what is an astonishingly irresponsible decision made by a man who has no background in healthcare and no relevant experience, in defiance of established international protocol and the advice of subject matter experts with relevant experience, alongside an evident personal conflict of interest.

Wes Streeting will not have to see the impact of his decision on the daily lives of those it affects.

Their families and loved ones will.

It was inevitable that at some point, someone would have to put a stop to the madness; regardless of whether older people are still doing it to themselves or not.

The "international protocol" you refer to is, I assume, WPATH? An organisation which has been recently ( the last few weeks) found to have manipulated its own research findings ( from John Hopkins university) in order to suppress the truth that blocking puberty and giving cross sex hormones is not a safe and long term effective 'treatment' for 'gender distress'.

Paris trans healthcare conference: Zhenya Abbuzreze about the WPATH scandal."We've been Bamboozled!"

At a conference about transgender healthcare in Paris, 29-06,Conference ORGANIZED BY the Observatoire la Petite Sirène - OPS WITH THE PARTNERSHIP OF the Soci...

https://youtu.be/HdhRgjs3_Cg?si=yWvyMYKLtjdUFc7B

RapidOnsetGenderCritic · 17/07/2024 19:10

ButterflyHatched · 17/07/2024 18:58

Oh this is fun.

Would you ban an enhanced treatment protocol that had been given decades of large scale well documented studies and was, through the combination of leading new technologies, able to completely, reliably and safely reverse pubertal physiological changes without the developmental time pressure factor?

That's just fantasy, so not worth answering.

Every single person I know who has a transgender friend, family member or loved one is reeling from this callous move to perpetuate what was already an incredibly dangerous, rash decision forced into place without solid justification in a way that made it impossible to even seriously discuss or challenge.

This appears to show that you live in a transgender community bubble. The friends, family members and loved ones of the trans people I know have a variety of viewpoints. As I may have mentioned before, I have a transgender son, who is fortunately beyond the age range Streeting is trying to protect. My wish is that all the unevidenced treatments based on unscientific and highly irrational assumptions become much rarer. There is a much more rational and helpful approach to sex and gender than the trans ideology demands to "transition" a body to fit a "gender identity" based on societal gender stereotypes.

Winterborne74 · 17/07/2024 19:07

Don’t really understand the question, but reversing pubertal changes would not a beneficial medical outcome even if the patient desires it. Anyone who wants that needs help to overcome those feelings, not treatment resulting in physiological changes.

duc748 · 17/07/2024 19:06

I think this is like one of those Netflix series, @spannasaurus , where there's another time-frame thirty years in the future...

spannasaurus · 17/07/2024 19:03

ButterflyHatched · 17/07/2024 18:58

Oh this is fun.

Would you ban an enhanced treatment protocol that had been given decades of large scale well documented studies and was, through the combination of leading new technologies, able to completely, reliably and safely reverse pubertal physiological changes without the developmental time pressure factor?

Can you provide any links to those large scale well documented studies

ButterflyHatched · 17/07/2024 18:58

duc748 · 17/07/2024 18:46

Who knows what horrors the trans-humanist Frankensteins will come up with in the future, though?

Oh this is fun.

Would you ban an enhanced treatment protocol that had been given decades of large scale well documented studies and was, through the combination of leading new technologies, able to completely, reliably and safely reverse pubertal physiological changes without the developmental time pressure factor?

duc748 · 17/07/2024 18:46

SpanielintheWorks · 17/07/2024 18:40

the best - often only - ray of hope they currently have for the future

But there is no hope of changing sex. You can only somewhat modify appearance.

Who knows what horrors the trans-humanist Frankensteins will come up with in the future, though?

Swamphag · 17/07/2024 18:46

ResisterOfTwaddleRex · 17/07/2024 13:45

I was about to post a link to this. I've long thought that the TRAs follower the abuser model to a tee. I'm surprised more people don't see it.

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2024 18:45

CantDealwithChristmas · 17/07/2024 14:04

I believe so. Which makes his post about parents of trans children pouring their ashes out, really, really chilling to me

What did Helen Joyce say about it not being about the children's need but about the parents desires?

There are wise women out there.

RedToothBrush · 17/07/2024 18:42

Remember when Lisa the social worker said on her videos, waaaayyyy back when that when men start to lose and are told no, they will escalate and that's when they become dangerous.

Well that.

SpanielintheWorks · 17/07/2024 18:40

the best - often only - ray of hope they currently have for the future

But there is no hope of changing sex. You can only somewhat modify appearance.

TheywontletmehavethenameIwant · 17/07/2024 18:21

I was speaking to an NHS clinician yesterday in a professional context who was having to bite her tongue at what is an astonishingly irresponsible decision made by a man who has no background in healthcare and no relevant experience, in defiance of established international protocol and the advice of subject matter experts with relevant experience, alongside an evident personal conflict of interest.

The 'man' has based his decision on the report complied by Dr Cass, and other equally qualified professional's. Was the clinician you spoke to as qualified? and does your personal anecdote make you as qualified?

Sussurations · 17/07/2024 18:10

it is unfortunately the case that you cannot divorce suicide from the subject of healthcare for gender incongruent youth in the UK in 2024. We have been trying for decades, and came closer than we ever had previously circa-2017 just before the culture war kicked into gear.

When I read these kinds of arguments they feel like something from a more superstitious time, when we knew even less about mental health than we do now, and correlation and causation were always being confused.

sadly, there will always be suicides and some young people will always suffer from depression and mental illness.

I have never seen any real evidence, nor even a coherent argument, to the effect that this is something that needs radically different handling in ‘gender incongruent’ young people compared to other young people. Experimenting on their bodies seems like an insanely brutal and primitive way of managing what must be - if suicide is such a risk - at least partly a mental illness. We know there are ways to reduce suicide risk - we also know that talking about suicide a lot makes it happen more due to social contagion.

AlexaAdventuress · 17/07/2024 18:08

Despite all this hormonal interference with distressed young people, we're still not in a position to say that it does any good. As well as the material reviewed by Cass, here's another one
"Current evidence doesn't suggest that GD (gender dysphoria) symptoms and mental health significantly improve when PB or CSH are used in minors with GD." as it says here:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38410090/

[Beyond NICE: Updated Systematic Review on the Current Evidence of Using Puberty Blocking Pharmacological Agents and Cross-Sex-Hormones in Minors with Gender Dysphoria] - PubMed

Beyond NICE: Updated Systematic Review on the Current Evidence of Using Puberty Blocking Pharmacological Agents and Cross-Sex-Hormones in Minors with Gender Dysphoria <b>Abstract:</b> <i>Objective:</i> The suppression of physiological puberty using pub...

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38410090

Winterborne74 · 17/07/2024 18:08

This is only a half thought and perhaps not relevant to the thread so forgive me, but I’m struck by the contrast between the view that challenging gender ideology is damaging conversion therapy which should be banned as it risks driving trans identifying people to suicide, and the view that women requesting single sex rape crisis provision are bigots who should be challenged to reframe their trauma. It’s not at all consistent and if anything, shouldn’t it be precisely the other way round? People who identify as trans do need to be challenged because the stakes are so high and being trans is a psychological state and ways of thinking fundamental, but traumatised rape victims should not be challenged because their beliefs - even if they are bigoted- are irrelevant to their experience so their treatment should be therapeutic, compassionate and victim focussed rather than “educational”.

Helleofabore · 17/07/2024 18:06

“the sad truth of the situation is that children are being sent a message by the government that the best - often only - ray of hope they currently have for the future is being actively and comprehensively banned for poorly defined, deeply controversial and highly inconsistent reasons.”

Gosh. Imagine supposedly supportive groups who have recklessly pushed a treatment and who have supported, indeed, promoted a narrative that told children that they could be born in the wrong body and if they ‘felt’ like they were the opposite sex then they were and that drugs that had life shortening side effects were the answer that they needed. And that any adult who disagreed hates that child and destroys ‘the best - often only - ray of hope they currently have for the future’. Even the government!!

“for poorly defined, deeply controversial and highly inconsistent reasons.”

No. The reasons are not poorly defined. They are only deeply controversial because a group of deeply ideologically driven people believe that drugs and surgery are appropriate treatments for a psychological condition. One that IS poorly defined, inconsistent and deeply controversial due to that poor definition and controversy.

Imagine being child and having adults tell you this. Imagine being a child and having a person who celebrates being an ‘elder’ in an advisory position telling you this! Imagine being a female child having an adult male tell you this!

I think we are now getting our own MN special demonstration on what feeds Maugham’s tweets.

Ariana12 · 17/07/2024 17:58

I think JM does have a gender confused daughter who apparently accessed puberty blockers before she turned 16. I'm really worried that his horrible comments will be self fulfilling and that some poor distressed kid will be influenced to commit suicide.

Helleofabore · 17/07/2024 17:54

ButterflyHatched · 17/07/2024 16:36

I would recommend reflecting on the impact of suddenly removing the sole legal means of treating a preventable source of intense lifelong distress without providing any alternative option in any other area of healthcare.

I would also recommend reflecting on how happy you would be to be sentenced to a mandatory course of cross-sex hormones for the next several years. It's only a few years, right? It's not like there would be any permanent changes that would impact your quality of life, so what's the problem? You might be able to have counselling to help you get used to the new voice you are now stuck with, if there are NHS resources available.

Whether you try and explain this away as hyperbolic catastrophising teenagers or brainwashed death cult members, the sad truth of the situation is that children are being sent a message by the government that the best - often only - ray of hope they currently have for the future is being actively and comprehensively banned for poorly defined, deeply controversial and highly inconsistent reasons.

This is despite their older peers being allowed to continue treatment due to having managed to get a foot in the door just before the ban. This is also despite younger children continuing to be prescribed this exact same treatment routinely, and other children who have more visible phenotype variations being allowed treatment for their conditions - which even sometimes include gender incongruence.

Bear in mind that this is the treatment that is prescribed as a concessionary measure in lieu of immediately issuing cross-sex hormones as requested by the vast majority of gender incongruent children - which would allow the retention of developmental parity with peers and nullify any bone density concerns arising from long-term suppression.

It doesn't add up. Are GnRH agonists so unsafe that they have to be immediately and completely banned as an emergency measure? If so, why are they still being issued to any children? Why are we allowing any drug that affects the LH release mechanism? Why only and specifically this one kind of child that just so happens to serve as the focal point for the culture war?

How do you explain to a child that although there is a 40 year-old treatment that addresses the permanent changes they are facing - that they did not ask for and will only be able to partially undo with years of expensive and painful surgery - they aren't allowed it now because JK Rowling got a little carried away with the new hobby she found half a decade ago, and money speaks so loudly that politicians are forced to listen? That despite the people who banned their future - no matter how elegantly you try to frame the blow - finally being gone from government, the next bunch are actually choosing to make it worse?

While I would vastly prefer that we were living in a social paradigm that made it possible, it is unfortunately the case that you cannot divorce suicide from the subject of healthcare for gender incongruent youth in the UK in 2024. We have been trying for decades, and came closer than we ever had previously circa-2017 just before the culture war kicked into gear.

The two sadly remain intrinsically and inescapably linked, and will continue to be for as long as this cultural context remains so deeply harmful. The people targeted at the focal point of the reactionary turn that has obliterated all the nuance and compassion we had painstakingly achieved in discourse simply don't have the luxury of getting to choose whether or not to engage with it, because it has now quite literally become a matter of life and death.

I'm not surprised that Jolyon is so frustrated. Every single person I know who has a transgender friend, family member or loved one is reeling from this callous move to perpetuate what was already an incredibly dangerous, rash decision forced into place without solid justification in a way that made it impossible to even seriously discuss or challenge.

I was speaking to an NHS clinician yesterday in a professional context who was having to bite her tongue at what is an astonishingly irresponsible decision made by a man who has no background in healthcare and no relevant experience, in defiance of established international protocol and the advice of subject matter experts with relevant experience, alongside an evident personal conflict of interest.

Wes Streeting will not have to see the impact of his decision on the daily lives of those it affects.

Their families and loved ones will.

You have had the use of these drugs for precocious puberty explained to you previously. Or pehaps you have selective reading and ignored it.

Female children using these drugs for precocious puberty do not have the same doses. Plus the negative side effects to female child patients are now well documented. Including the ones that present decades after treatment. And that is the treatment that is for a physical medical condition that has serious future health implications without the drug vs a chemical treatment for a psychological condition.

oh. That is right. They are predominantly female patients that report the life shortening side effects. Nothing like a bit of misogyny in your posts that ignore the needs of female people. We know. We remember.

ResisterOfTwaddleRex · 17/07/2024 17:49

ButterflyHatched · 17/07/2024 16:36

I would recommend reflecting on the impact of suddenly removing the sole legal means of treating a preventable source of intense lifelong distress without providing any alternative option in any other area of healthcare.

I would also recommend reflecting on how happy you would be to be sentenced to a mandatory course of cross-sex hormones for the next several years. It's only a few years, right? It's not like there would be any permanent changes that would impact your quality of life, so what's the problem? You might be able to have counselling to help you get used to the new voice you are now stuck with, if there are NHS resources available.

Whether you try and explain this away as hyperbolic catastrophising teenagers or brainwashed death cult members, the sad truth of the situation is that children are being sent a message by the government that the best - often only - ray of hope they currently have for the future is being actively and comprehensively banned for poorly defined, deeply controversial and highly inconsistent reasons.

This is despite their older peers being allowed to continue treatment due to having managed to get a foot in the door just before the ban. This is also despite younger children continuing to be prescribed this exact same treatment routinely, and other children who have more visible phenotype variations being allowed treatment for their conditions - which even sometimes include gender incongruence.

Bear in mind that this is the treatment that is prescribed as a concessionary measure in lieu of immediately issuing cross-sex hormones as requested by the vast majority of gender incongruent children - which would allow the retention of developmental parity with peers and nullify any bone density concerns arising from long-term suppression.

It doesn't add up. Are GnRH agonists so unsafe that they have to be immediately and completely banned as an emergency measure? If so, why are they still being issued to any children? Why are we allowing any drug that affects the LH release mechanism? Why only and specifically this one kind of child that just so happens to serve as the focal point for the culture war?

How do you explain to a child that although there is a 40 year-old treatment that addresses the permanent changes they are facing - that they did not ask for and will only be able to partially undo with years of expensive and painful surgery - they aren't allowed it now because JK Rowling got a little carried away with the new hobby she found half a decade ago, and money speaks so loudly that politicians are forced to listen? That despite the people who banned their future - no matter how elegantly you try to frame the blow - finally being gone from government, the next bunch are actually choosing to make it worse?

While I would vastly prefer that we were living in a social paradigm that made it possible, it is unfortunately the case that you cannot divorce suicide from the subject of healthcare for gender incongruent youth in the UK in 2024. We have been trying for decades, and came closer than we ever had previously circa-2017 just before the culture war kicked into gear.

The two sadly remain intrinsically and inescapably linked, and will continue to be for as long as this cultural context remains so deeply harmful. The people targeted at the focal point of the reactionary turn that has obliterated all the nuance and compassion we had painstakingly achieved in discourse simply don't have the luxury of getting to choose whether or not to engage with it, because it has now quite literally become a matter of life and death.

I'm not surprised that Jolyon is so frustrated. Every single person I know who has a transgender friend, family member or loved one is reeling from this callous move to perpetuate what was already an incredibly dangerous, rash decision forced into place without solid justification in a way that made it impossible to even seriously discuss or challenge.

I was speaking to an NHS clinician yesterday in a professional context who was having to bite her tongue at what is an astonishingly irresponsible decision made by a man who has no background in healthcare and no relevant experience, in defiance of established international protocol and the advice of subject matter experts with relevant experience, alongside an evident personal conflict of interest.

Wes Streeting will not have to see the impact of his decision on the daily lives of those it affects.

Their families and loved ones will.

I'd recommend not experimenting on children. But there you are.