King's Speech: gender identity conversion therapy

Won't banning gay conversion and trans conversion cancel each other out? So you can't suggest someone might be trans instead of gay and also can't suggest someone might be gay instead of trans. So affirming someone as either gay or trans would be illegal?

As pp have said there are two key issues:

• how to draft the bill
• the HoL have shown they have quite a lot of GC or sensible members. They forced a vital concession to the Ministerial and other Maternity Allowances Act 2021.

I'm in agreement with everyone who has mentioned how difficult it will be to draft anything sensible and unambiguous.

Previous consultations and private members bills have all failed because of the unintended consequences, lack of clear definitions etc.

Practices that involve physical conversion practices are already illegal, so I presume any new law would focus on talking therapy and where do you draw the line between exploration and conversion? And what about encouraging transitioning in someone who is actually gender non conforming same sex attracted? That equally would be conversion therapy but I'm not sure the likes of stonewall recognise it as such.

I'm dubious whether it can be drafted in such a way. 'Unambiguous legislation' seems a lot to hope for these days.

We are clear that any ban must not cover legitimate psychological support, treatment, or non-directive counselling. It must also respect the important role that teachers, religious leaders, parents and carers can have in supporting those exploring their sexual orientation or gender identity.

if that is taken on face value then that sounds fine to me, along with the headline about it focusing on banning abusive conversion practices.

it remains to be seen whether it is possible to draft clear, unambiguous legislation that defines the difference between exploratory, supportive counselling allowing people to explore their own feelings and motives, and abusive forced conversions.

It's a draft so it's kicking the can down the road. The GRA was snuck in, in Blair's second term. Starmer might be handling that Ming vase for a while yet.

It's also a vehicle for "gender identity" to get on the statute books.

How come it applies to England AND Wales though? Thought devolution was the order of the day!

Which brings us to the danger point - Scotland. How that would play out as their MPs have been wiped out but Holyrood is still stuffed to the rafters with them though, is anyone's guess.

Honestly good luck to the civil servants drafting that!!!

A lot to worry about, BUT we have advantages.

Sexual and trans identities contradict each other.

So do religious identities.

Labour think that open debate is going to lead everyone to to love each other in happy unicorn land.

Reality is open debate is going to be a huge war. We know what is at stake.

Children's safety and women's security and the chance for gay people to have normal lives.

There is a multitude of people ready to speak up.

We might lose, but we fight every step of the way and attempt to booby trap the whole thing. If we put enough safeguards for gay and lesbian identity and proper counseling in the bill we can derail the gender train later.

If the Act passes with the right clauses we can use lawfare to sue Mermaids/NHS clinics for gay conversion. They have to prove in court someone is 100% trans and they provided good counciling not brain washing. How do they do that?

a full, trans-inclusive ban

I read that as not applying to transing confused kids.

Here is the text from the
King's Speech 2024: background briefing notes

Draft Conversion Practices Bill

“A draft Bill will be brought forward to ban conversion practices.”
● Conversion practices are abuse. They are acts that aim to change someone’s sexual orientation or gender identity, mostly in relation to LGBT+ people. Such practices have no place in society and must be stopped.
● Through the Conversion Practices Bill, this Government will deliver our manifesto commitment to bring forward a full, trans-inclusive ban on conversion practices.

What does the draft Bill do?
● The draft Conversion Practices Bill will propose new offences to target acts of conversion practices that are not captured by existing legislation. The Government wants to ensure that the criminal law offers protection from these abusive practices, while also preserving the freedom for people, and those supporting them, to explore their sexual orientation and gender identity. This will mean those providing medical care and support are in no way impacted by this Bill.
● We are clear that any ban must not cover legitimate psychological support, treatment, or non-directive counselling. It must also respect the important role that teachers, religious leaders, parents and carers can have in supporting those exploring their sexual orientation or gender identity.
● This is a government of change, which will give respect and dignity to everyone. That is why the ban will be fully trans-inclusive. We are committed to listening to all viewpoints and concerns with respect.
● This Government is getting on with delivering a conversion practices ban. There is genuine cross party and cross society consensus to see these practices banned. But to ensure we have a ban that works and achieves that for the long term, we need to work closely with everyone and bring everyone with us as we do so - because no one thinks the status quo is acceptable.

Territorial extent and application
● The Bill will extend and apply to England and Wales.

The TRA's will be ranting again.
Pinning their hopes on a Labour govt is backfiring.

I think the devil will really be in the detail once they come to draft it

It looks like talking therapy is going to be permitted. I guess the use of puberty blockers could be seen as 'abusive' conversion therapy?

BBC reports

• A draft Conversion Practices Bill will introduce new restrictions on "abusive" practices intended to change people's sexual orientation or gender identity

I am concerned about the detail of how they balance the ban on conversion therapy with safeguarding duties for people like teachers. They create a risk of a damned if you do and damned if you don’t situation. You can’t have teachers and safeguarding leads feeling that they can’t speak to a child about ROGD for example because it could deemed to be challenging the child’s gender.

Yes, my concern is that this is the actual unspoken purpose of this ban: to create ‘gender identity’ as a concept in law.

Come, friendly bombs!

Yes, my concern is that this is the actual unspoken purpose of this ban: to create ‘gender identity’ as a concept in law.

It's not imo.

It's crazy for them to try and legislate about what constitutes appropriate therapy, that's not the kind of things you make laws about.

It's already illegal to do things like detain people or force them into therapy they don't want.

Thank you, I have read those stories. Clearly religion does play a very large part, even before a religious practitioner, or specialist ‘therapist’, undertakes the attempted conversions. As you said too, all but one were gay, and the trans person was clearly gay but feeling guilty.

It is difficult to imagine how a ban would work, as it could make exorcisms/praying over someone, talking them out of being gay, or electric shock aversion therapy illegal, but not the religious belief causing the guilt in the first place.

The stories on this site are the only examples I've seen.

https://www.banconversiontherapy.com/

In all cases except one, the conversion therapy has been carried out by a religious community which the people belonged to (Christian, Jewish or Muslim), and they are all gay or lesbian. The exception is a male who identifies as a transwoman who was subjected to conversion therapy in the 1960s.

One of the young people also identifies as trans, but is also same-sex attracted.

Allow me a moment of happy thoughts...

I'm just imagining the lords all dining together. The subject comes up. Some hapless Lord mentions that the ban sounds like a good idea. The place falls silent as everyone turns to look at how high Dr Cass's right eyebrow has raised.

Does anyone k ow what conversion therapies are being practised these days on gay people, and on trans people?

So, a law to further cement an ideological construct that one is not permitted to question or explore.

So far Labour has shown it is not so good, nor keen, on clear definitions of the sort required for workable law.