King's Speech: gender identity conversion therapy

TBF if it's a Labour manifesto pledges, the sno no longer have to do anything as it would apply to Scotland too.

Even if you were committed to the concept, it's be stupid to draft something before Westminster in case it's contradictory. You'd let London do it for you then argue about how it does or doesn't go far enough.

Is sanity coming North of the border (relatively speaking)?

www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/07/22/swinney-poised-scrap-snp-conversion-therapy-ban/

https://archive.ph/4WD3W take the free road

I think they'll be trouble in them thar hills.

Perhaps Swinney has just bottled it. Has realised this legislation is impossible to write coherently so's letting Westminster have a crack at it. There's also the bitter dregs of the election and, perhaps, Kate Forbes' influence.

Really - where is the carve out for someone exercising a safeguarding role such as required under KCSIE?

What does supplying materials cover? Would giving giving someone a copy of the Cass report and pointing out that it says there is no evidence for the benefit or safety of puberty blockers and that social transition is not a neutral act be caught?

There was a reason why this bill failed. Drafting legislation is horribly complex and when you have competing rights and duties even more so.

GIDS whistleblowers said that in some cases the parents of a trans child appeared to display homophobia. In that case, taking the child to a gender clinic was arguably a form of gay conversion therapy.

The Gay Man's Network pulled it apart and found loads of glaring issues with it.

Dennis Noel Kavanagh has lots of his timeline and on his blog explaining the problems.

You need legal expertise for this one.

That is the Loyd Russell bill from 2023 which failed.

I imagine the Labour bill will have more opt outs perhaps.

"I think this is very bad news for all"

Most countries across W/Central mainland Europe went through with banning conversion therapy (yes, including for gender identity) many years ago and the sky somehow hasn't fell in yet.

@turkeymuffin ... I agree... and admirable in its simplicity

What do others think??

Yes, thank you, that’s right.

The draft bill is here

publications.parliament.uk/pa/bills/cbill/58-04/0022/230022.pdf

There are plenty of exceptions and caveats. Doesn't look too bad to me.

This was the head (?) of the BMA Tweeting against the “First Do No Harm “ conference earlier this year:

I assume this was dr emma runswick deputy chair of BMA who is a dyed in the wool TRA

Re: Talking therapy being seen as conversion therapy.

This was the head (?) of the BMA Tweeting against the “First Do No Harm “ conference earlier this year:

It is disappointing to see organisations fold to threats & feel forced to platform advocates of conversion practice. It is frustrating to see bullies using DARVO when attacking the healthcare of trans people. Remember our progress #LGBTplusHM Keep working #BanConversionTherapy

The fact that this doctor dismisses people like Professor Kaltiala, as being an advocate of conversion practices, shows you are right I think.

Prof. K. is Chief of Adolescent psychiatry in Finland, founder of one of the first adolescent gender clinics in Finland, and has seen at first hand what happens with the Dutch model they followed first of affirmation only, puberty blockers, and surgery.

That she now, after extensive research, advocates psychiatric interventions with a sympathetic, but non , affirmative wait and see approach with adolescents, should hardly be a reason for saying she advocates ‘conversion therapy’.

A spokesperson for the conference writes:
We refute in the strongest possible terms that we are, or in any way support, conversion therapists or practices. We view these accusations as defamatory, misplaced, irresponsible, and contrary to our growing body of work.

Yes this is the route I would get my spade out to support LGB alliance and Gay Men’s Network raising a legal challenge

Set out like this, it's GRA V2.0.

The aim of civil servants and activists is for this to be badly worded and ambiguous.

There is no evidence for gender identity, and this is one of many attempts to enshrine the concept in law.

There will be (and have already been) test cases brought before judges to argue that talking therapy is conversion therapy. With many laws it is the threat of the law that will dissuade many therapists from talking therapy.

Banning trans conversion therapy is deeply homophobic, and shame on anyone who supports the ban.

I am hoping that the well meaning idiots just haven't thought things through enough.

Ive said all along that most people tend to have been in a mindset of 'be kind' and just haven't thought because they are just nice people and presumed that others who think differently aren't well meaning. And when they do start to go along that path they inevitably come the wall of reality, and go 'oh'. And its just that some of here are further along this path and then they realise that actually we are well meaning we just figured out ages ago that it was a load of unworkable bollocks.

I’ll try again.

i accept it will be nigh impossible difficult to draw up workable legislation as outlined in the speech. But I am heartened that the new government is saying things like counselling and psychiatry should not fall under any legislation, which means worries about affirmative only treatment being permitted can recede a bit. It shows their intent is headed in the right direction of protecting children even if they haven’t yet grasped the implications of the Forstater paradox.

I may well be naive, but I voted for Labour as a) I have a good local MP and b) I considered it the least worst national option as I am not a single issue voter. Along with upholding Cass and making the PB ban permanent I am pleasantly surprised so far. We’ve not had to battle from Day 1 as I feared. I may be being lulled into a false sense of security so I’m not being complacent. There is always the risk that they could introduce legislation that supersedes Forstater for example.

• A draft Conversion Practices Bill will introduce new restrictions on "abusive" practices intended to change people's sexual orientation or gender identity

Will Sam Smith be done for constantly flipping his?

You hope that Labour can legislate gender religion into law with no problems with the Forstater ruling or without removing the Forstater ruling by forcing us all to believe in gender?

Ok then.

As I said above, I’m happy to accept that drafting this legislation will be extremely difficult. However, given the context of the kings speech, I’m satisfied that at least at the start, the government is looking like it’s attempting to move in a sensible direction. Long may it last, I hope they hold their collective nerve.

Yes but I think most of our Muslim MPs have a variety of viewpoints even within their own party. They were elected because they were Tory or Labour or whatever not purely because of their religion though that may have helped. Within Labour we have gendercrit Muslims and TRA Muslims. For instance a key figure is Shabana Mahmood MP Birmingham Ladywood, Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice who is the most powerful openly gendercrit MP.

The Four independent Gaza MPs are there because they are Muslim. They are in fact sectarian to a degree somewhat like,many NI MPs. They speak for themselves and their interpretation of Islam. They all however signed up to the Muslim Vote pledges:
https://themuslimvote.co.uk/pledges/

One of the Education pledges is

• Issuance of Department for Education guidance to schools and academies reflecting that cultural and religious sensitivity must be taken into account when discussing LGBT matters, particularly by schools in areas where the majority of the community are from a religious background. This should include proactive and meaningful parental consultation, particularly concerning issues such as the teaching of RSE.

Their existence an positions will cause division within the far left which has a huge contradiction over its approach to conservative Islam.

A: I am a fairy.
B: You are not a fairy. Fairies don't exist.
A: You are trying to convert me.
B: But I can't be converting you because fairies don't exist. My right to say this is protected in law because it's a commonly held view.
A: But they do. You are denying my existence.
B: Well no you exist, you just can't be a fairy because fairies don't exist, you are just a human who thinks you are a fairy.
Copper: I arrest you for trying to convert this fairy to a human
Courts: What fuck is this lunacy? Not another poorly legislated load of unenforceable ridiculousness where the law is impossible and breaks

This is what Labour want to write into law and legislate.

In a nutshell.

I think there are about twenty Muslim MPs in Parliament now.

Also remember we have Four Gaza MPs now

That's very brave of them. I look forward to seeing them on the TV in Gaza in the thick of the action.

I suspect the inconsistencies mean it will be somewhat of a dead letter law, the aim from the TRAs is to get more gender stuff into the law.

However this will be balanced by recognition of transing the gay away.

Also remember we have Four Gaza MPs now. Be interesting to see what they do with this. Their reaction might cause drama.

The more open debate we have the better. Because they cannot handle that look what is happening to JM.

Dennis Kavanagh had a really good Twitter thread on this. The gist of it was that a refusal to believe in gender identity is protected in law; therefore, how can you prosecute someone for trying to change a person's gender identity if they don't believe in gender identity in the first place?

(I may have lost some of the nuance in translation.)

x.com/Jebadoo2/status/1813124302096507008