RSHE: Who decides? Schools? Parents? Government? Is there a collaborative way to resolve competing rights?

I agree and I include feminism in this. Feminism can and should easily be part of history or politics. But "casting a feminist lens" or whatever the hackneyed phrase is, so as to skew a sex education lesson, should not be happening in any area of school life. Same goes for CRT and other forms of P/politics. The law is clear on that.

I guess that's what I was clumsily trying to say - it's the nature of the beast.

Some ideas eg 'some women have a penis' are ideologically based and not factually based (although those that hold them would probably try to argue that they are, they just have different 'facts' to back them up).

I don't know how you can get around that.

I rather wonder though - who has ideas about sex that aren't belief/morality based?

I believe this is actually a first principles question, to a large extent.

What right does the state have with regards to imposing a particular type of education on children, and also, what obligations does the state have to keep away from controversial belief systems in state provided education.

I don't actually think that's a matter of opinion, as such, it's not about a social consensus about what schools should teach. It's about the role of parents vs the state in children's lives.

It's really important to keep clear in our minds that as soon as we say it is ok, or good, for the state to undermine or contradict parental views that the majority thinks are wrong, we've set a precedent. We should have a very good sense of what the lines are around that and understand that if we don't, it could easily become any set of socially popular beliefs the state sees as it's job to impart.

I think with gender ideology, some people who had been content to allow that the state should use education to indoctrinate children suddenly experienced what this means when you aren't comfortable with the narrative the state is pushing.

I also think the question of belief vs fact is much less helpful here than people might like. In general, in the UK I don't think you'd find many who objected to facts like how biology works, what to expect with puberty, what kinds of birth control are available and whether they work, STIs, and what kinds of things are legal or illegal, rape and sexual assault.

But there are a lot of things that many average people in the UK might think of as facts, that are actually values statements. Things like gender roles in marriage, abortion, sex outside of marriage casual sex, homosexuality, parenting questions, whether sexual fetishes are ok, whether masturbation is ok, whether pornography is ok, whether prostitution is ok. These are all things about which there are many viewpoints, religious and non-religious, that touch on complicated questions about sexual behaviour.

Personally, I have some real doubts about whether schools have any moral right to teach kids about that stuff, and maybe more to the point, I am not at all convinced that most teachers or the people who develop curriculum are capable of addressing these points appropriately in a society that is multicultural and contains a lot of religious and ideological pluralism.

I know it's very much going against the grain or the last decades to say schools should just stay out of those kinds of questions, but I don't see a plausible better solution.

I think the government should focus on teaching children how to read, write and do basic arithmetic. Until 100% of children can leave school with these basic skills they shouldn't be worrying about RSE.

I'm uncomfortable with the concept of 'competing rights' being used to determine what / how children are taught as that suggests to me a 'balance' that isn't necessarily scientific (eg balance of flat earth and non flat earth beliefs in the interests of 'fairness' to each belief system).

Children's rights are the only ones relevant.

I don't think any faction has the 'right' to determine what children are taught - it should be facts / evidence based.

We have largely solved this question re religion in the UK - it's taught as belief and not fact and most people are in with this.

I think the trouble with sex&relationships education is that some people's point of view is clearly belief/morality based but they see it as fact. I am not sure they're is any way to get past this without pissing those people off.

As has been said upthread, taking on board all the consultation responses that have been submitted this far would be a good faith way to start.

I include wingnut religious types in cultists
Yes. Me too. I would not want to see the kind of "input" into RHSE in the UK that the evangelical Christian community have had in the US.

Something has to be done about the activist layer in the teaching unions, and it may come down to the majority of sensible teachers who have been poorly represented for decades.

The kneejerk responses we get from NEU activists are:

• Parents shouldn't be able to withdraw their children from RHSE lessons
• Parents shouldn't have the right to know what's being taught under RHSE
• Parents should be assumed to be bigots who don't know what's best for their children, and therefore sensitive issues like sex are best left to the professionals

I wish more teachers, and maybe more to the point Bridget Phillipson (bearing in mind the outsize influence of teachers in the Labour Party) would look at the similar approach being taken by American teaching unions, and ask themselves how that's working out for them.

This.

Editing to add that I include wingnut religious types in cultists not just Trans activists. Children have the right to factual age appropriate information about their bodies. So no 'sex is wrong' but equally no gender woo and no porn thinly disguised as 'sex positivity'.

The most important thing is probably that teachers are encouraged to critically examine the materials they are asked to use. Is the information accurate? Is it contradictory? Could there be unintended consequences from some of the messaging? Am I asking children what they've understood after the lesson - is it what I expected or have they taken a different message?

Do all the critical reflecting we're told not to do by the usual suspects - for obvious reasons!!

Interesting question.

My preference would be RHSE providers and content are more tightly controlled centrally, maybe by the DfE. I think setting out principles and guidelines for schools would be better than imposing arbitrary rules. And I'd like any updates to be guided by teachers and professionals who have been working with the 2020 guidelines and will know what is not working well.

I don't think parents should be able to remove children from RHSE lessons because the children who will benefit most from the education are those who's parents are most uncomfortable with the topics and unlikely to discuss at home.

The government of the day needs to pull on its big girl pants, prioritise children and their parents, and put the cultists back in their box.

It can be "solved" by the government noting the response to the consultation. It was literally set up for the public to give views.