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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Wes Streeting addresses puberty blockers decision -excellent response

356 replies

Fenlandia · 14/07/2024 12:05

https://x.com/wesstreeting/status/1812435914473295927

x.com

https://x.com/wesstreeting/status/1812435914473295927

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33
endofthelinefinally · 16/07/2024 08:34

When you cannot do a clinical trial for reasons of ethics or children, you do a retrospective audit using the data collected by the institution giving experimental treatment. For example the use of low molecular weight heparin in pregnancy to prevent clots.
The Tavistock deliberately failed to keep data.
This whole thing has been very well planned and orchestrated.

Floisme · 16/07/2024 08:26

fromorbit · 15/07/2024 18:00

How do we fight?

Parliamentary

Any bills will be tabled and debated in Commons with the possibility of amendments. We have a core of about 10 or more potential Labour rebels if the bills are bad enough. That is not enough to stop the bill, but is enough to cause a media storm if they rebel. The Tories will go all out because what do they have to lose. It is not the vote which they will lose, but the weaknesses they will expose.

You mention lib Dems/Greens etc. They are not certain to support the bills. Fact is they won't because the Bills will have some stuff to keep women happy. So they will be trying to amend them to make them more crazy. TRA Labour MPs will be tempted to support them. More delays and debate. More sunlight where Lib Dem MPs will have to argue for removing safeguards etc. They may back the bills in the end, but the process will be messy.

Then there are the four Gaza Independent MPs. They are only 4 votes, but I think they will not be keen on these bills as they might lead to Mosques being in trouble over conversion therapy, or saying women exist and they need to be dressed in religious garb etc. So that will lead to infighting with TRA leftists/progressives which could get messy real fast. Again more debate. Do Labour want to lose Muslims over gender stuff?

Then the bills go through the Lords multiple times also with possibility of amendment. Any weaknesses will be mercilessly exposed in the Lords. The Lords might very well vote them down. Which means more Commons votes.

It will not be a straightforward process. It will be heavily contested.

Media
Most newspapers will watch gender bills like a hawk. Multiple stories will be run.
Even if the BBC skimps on coverage the social media buzz will be huge will get a lot of interest. Above all if JKR tweets it is a news story. That will go on for months.

Protest
We have a LOT of women, even men, ready to act and protest in person and online. You think JKR's army is big now well I think it could get way way bigger if we can argue the existence of women is at stake. Lots of demos outside Parliament.

So you might say all this doesn't stop the bills being passed with that majority and Lib/Green support. Nope, it doesn't but everything we do raises the stakes and effort needed and the attention it consumes and the drama. That is important. That might mean the bills are weakened or amended due to popular pressure.

We follow the Women won't Weesht playbook. They had way less resources, less media attention than a Westminster debate would have. The bill also did not have to face the Lords. The bill was passed, but the SNP was critically wounded to do it.

Sturgeon went all in to get the most TRA friendly bill possible to pass. Remember SHE LOST. It all was wrecked in the end.

How much effort will Starmer put in? 80%, 60% 30%? The thing is how important is this to him and the cabinet? I don't think he cares that much.

Then we get to the next fightback

Legal
We have amazing lawyers. They can analyse the bills and point out errors. Say Labour pass something which makes no legal sense. We challenge that in the courts and keep on going. We have lawyers and we have the funds. The clever in Labour know this. So they will be keen to avoid judicial review by drafting a bill which isn't open to challenge. However to do that they need to concede a lot of ground to reality. TRAs will not like that at all. Which makes the Parliamentary debate more fraught.

Which leads to my final point.

Operation Let Them Speak

Our biggest allies will be the TRAs themselves. They will describe any bill which admits reality as genocide. They will undermine the more dangerous clever activists who cloak their aims in favour of the most crazy ones. They will make Fox Killer their legal expert. Right through this process Labour will be being described as monsters. Which links back into the question about effort.

How important is this stuff if you are going to be described as transphobic bigots whatever you do anyway?

Knowing if you screw it up a child rapist might be waving his GRC weeks after the bill is passed saying "thanks Starmer".

That you might have child psychologists being prosecuted for telling girls they are not boys.

Yes bills are likely to be passed, but we can challenge them and hope to amend them enough they are dead letters. Or make the bills so toxic through publicity they badly damage Labour electorally.

Plus ultimately a Tory/Reform government would tear them up in 5 or 10 years anyway if they anger people enough.

Thank you.

Fenlandia · 16/07/2024 08:25

lonelywater · 15/07/2024 23:57

not sure why this surprises you. If you relied only on the BBC you would never have heard of the WPATH files and barely much more than that about Cass. They are worse on gender hatstand than the Gruan, which really is saying something.

Who said I was surprised?

I am so weary of the BBC's lack of journalistic integrity and curiosity on this medical, social and political issue. And utterly bored of their obsession with drag queens, as if that was the dominant life experience of everyone under the LGBT.

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RedToothBrush · 16/07/2024 08:10

fromorbit · 16/07/2024 07:45

It could indeed work for our side. The thing is a lot of the professional psychologist organisations are rebelling against TRA doctrine now and advising about issues in line with CAss. With Streeting having a key role in drafting the Conversion Therapy bill and it being based on CASS it may indeed have that focus.

I think the bill may have sections about sex and various sexualities being REAL in some way.

I think Streeting knows the TRAs are trying to trans away the gay. I think as a gay man who battled against internalised homophobia he is perfect to notice that. I think he is peaking or has peaked and what he says in public may not be his private thoughts.

The TRAs were aiming to use conversion therapy bill to get rid of bio sex. However that was based on the arrogant assumption that they would not be out manoeuvred by actual people living in the real world.

So that is why I say do not panic. Wait to see bills see how they read.

Do not assume we are going to lose. Even if we lose short term we can come back with a bigger victory. Scottish Women showed that it could be done.

I am fairly convinced that Wes Streeting is in contact either with Dennis Noel Kavanagh directly or with some one in his circle. I don't have any evidence or proof of this, but I have a hunch.

RedToothBrush · 16/07/2024 08:06

DdraigGoch · 16/07/2024 01:09

Thinking about it from another angle, could the "conversion therapy" bill be used to stop people "transing away the gay"? As in if someone tells people "you like things usually associated with the opposite sex, you must be born in the wrong body" they would risk prosecution?

Yes. But they have to recognise the problem and that's not going to go down well at all with the people who want to 'trans away the gay', of which there are more than people like to admit.

fromorbit · 16/07/2024 08:06

Love this from Darren "Former Green politician (the anti puberty blocker sort)"

Darren Johnson
Of all the battles when I was young: miners strike, privatisation, Section 28, IRA, Poll Tax never in my wildest dreams could I have predicted in 35 years time a battle would be raging between those in favour of chemically castrating kids and those against

x.com

https://x.com/DarrenJohnson66

fromorbit · 16/07/2024 07:45

DdraigGoch · 16/07/2024 01:09

Thinking about it from another angle, could the "conversion therapy" bill be used to stop people "transing away the gay"? As in if someone tells people "you like things usually associated with the opposite sex, you must be born in the wrong body" they would risk prosecution?

It could indeed work for our side. The thing is a lot of the professional psychologist organisations are rebelling against TRA doctrine now and advising about issues in line with CAss. With Streeting having a key role in drafting the Conversion Therapy bill and it being based on CASS it may indeed have that focus.

I think the bill may have sections about sex and various sexualities being REAL in some way.

I think Streeting knows the TRAs are trying to trans away the gay. I think as a gay man who battled against internalised homophobia he is perfect to notice that. I think he is peaking or has peaked and what he says in public may not be his private thoughts.

The TRAs were aiming to use conversion therapy bill to get rid of bio sex. However that was based on the arrogant assumption that they would not be out manoeuvred by actual people living in the real world.

So that is why I say do not panic. Wait to see bills see how they read.

Do not assume we are going to lose. Even if we lose short term we can come back with a bigger victory. Scottish Women showed that it could be done.

biddyboo · 16/07/2024 07:35

Runor · 15/07/2024 20:57

Zarah Sultana quick to claim that puberty blockers should not be banned. Wonder if she bothered to read the Cass report, or just consulted a Twix echo chamber?

Someone on Twitter (I think it was one of the editors of The Women who wouldn't Wheesht) said these MPs are just protecting their 'brand'. They are appealing to their fanbase by saying what they want to hear, rather than what is truthful and right, because they are thinking of their future career. She said Mhairi Black is a prime example of this.

EdenPalmersTerfAuntie · 16/07/2024 06:48

@fromorbit
Noticeably the BBC are not covering this major story so far. Wonder why?
They'll have to notice the existence of the Cass review first

DdraigGoch · 16/07/2024 01:09

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 14/07/2024 15:49

No disrespect to him but Streeting is the Labour compromise. I forgot about the rise of the undead - another bill to ban conversion therapy. Cass wasn't in favour of that either because of the harm it would do to children but Labour didn't care. Maybe that's the next thing to poke Streeting on?

Thinking about it from another angle, could the "conversion therapy" bill be used to stop people "transing away the gay"? As in if someone tells people "you like things usually associated with the opposite sex, you must be born in the wrong body" they would risk prosecution?

AutumnCrow · 16/07/2024 00:33

AlisonDonut · 15/07/2024 21:59

My suspicion is they will go hard on the Tories for letting this happen under their watch.

They will be prepared for the first PMQs on this.

Yep, they have been reading these threads, I'm sure of it now.

To rehash my old list, here are the culpable Tory MPs, in rough chronological order:

1 Crispin Blunt (full-on TRA, friend of convicted paedophile MP, Chair of APPG for Global LBGT+++)
2 Amber Rudd (captured, Cabinet Member and Minister for Women & Equalities)
3 Nicky Morgan (captured, Cabinet Member and Minister for Women & Equalities)
4 Maria Miller (captured, Chair of Select Committee for for Women & Equalities)
5 Theresa May (captured, Prime Minister)
6 Caroline Nokes (captured, Chair of Select Committee for for Women & Equalities)
7 Penny Mordaunt (full-on TWAW and TMAM from the despatch box in the Commons on behalf of the Government as Paymaster General, Cabinet Member, Leader of the House when she lost her seat)

Embarrassingly it took Liz Truss, under Boris Johnson, in her (then) role as Minister for Women & Equalities, to face off Crispin Blunt in the Commons and say NO to gender woo self-ID.

lonelywater · 15/07/2024 23:57

Fenlandia · 15/07/2024 22:46

I'd be glad to be shown to be wrong, but I can't find any coverage of the Wes Streeting story on the BBC website. That's indefensible. Even the dear old Guardian has covered it, albeit with more focus on those who disagree with him.

not sure why this surprises you. If you relied only on the BBC you would never have heard of the WPATH files and barely much more than that about Cass. They are worse on gender hatstand than the Gruan, which really is saying something.

UtopiaPlanitia · 15/07/2024 23:50

Signalbox · 15/07/2024 17:57

Don't forget Cass includes a trial for 1000 kids.

Presumably that'll be subject to ethics approval.

Andy Lewis has written a blogpost about the difficulties involved in setting up clinical trials for PBs:

https://www.quackometer.net/blog/2024/07/what-would-an-ethical-clinical-trial-into-puberty-blockers-look-like.html

What would an ethical clinical trial into puberty blockers look like? – The Quackometer Blog

https://www.quackometer.net/blog/2024/07/what-would-an-ethical-clinical-trial-into-puberty-blockers-look-like.html

IwantToRetire · 15/07/2024 23:50

ProtectAndTerf · 15/07/2024 23:47

@IwantToRetire
Looks like some in the Labour Party dont think LGBT+ Labour is hardline enough.

A new group has formed called Pride in Labour saying the ban on puberty blockers should be lifted immediately.

Judean People's Front?

The worry is that these will be yet another more extremist one after that, particulalry if it is only Wes Streeting "taking a stand".

Judean People's Revolutionary Guard?

duc748 · 15/07/2024 23:50

Ah, the 'dish them out like Smarties' brigade? Give them as much publicity as they like!

NoWordForFluffy · 15/07/2024 23:48

ProtectAndTerf · 15/07/2024 23:47

@IwantToRetire
Looks like some in the Labour Party dont think LGBT+ Labour is hardline enough.

A new group has formed called Pride in Labour saying the ban on puberty blockers should be lifted immediately.

Judean People's Front?

My first thought was 'Splitters'! Couldn't find a gif though. Sad times!

ProtectAndTerf · 15/07/2024 23:47

@IwantToRetire
Looks like some in the Labour Party dont think LGBT+ Labour is hardline enough.

A new group has formed called Pride in Labour saying the ban on puberty blockers should be lifted immediately.

Judean People's Front?

Fenlandia · 15/07/2024 23:42

Mollyollydolly · 15/07/2024 22:56

No they haven't covered it. Probably waiting for Josh Parry, their LGBT correspondent to clock on. I genuinely believe they only let him write these stories up which is one of the reasons they're always late publishing.

Silly me, I should have realised there was important drag queen content to push out first.

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RantyMcRanterton · 15/07/2024 23:22

lcakethereforeIam · 15/07/2024 20:15

There's a question I've always wanted to know the answer to. If you fart when it's freezing cold, does a little puff of steam come out of your bottom?

Oh I can help here. Depends on water content. Steamy breath in wintery conditions occurs as breath contains lots of water. Steamy farts not so likely as solids plus methane/other gases exit the tract. NB IANAScientist.

On to read the rest of the thread now. (quite the diversion!)

Mollyollydolly · 15/07/2024 22:56

No they haven't covered it. Probably waiting for Josh Parry, their LGBT correspondent to clock on. I genuinely believe they only let him write these stories up which is one of the reasons they're always late publishing.

Wes Streeting addresses puberty blockers decision -excellent response
Fenlandia · 15/07/2024 22:46

I'd be glad to be shown to be wrong, but I can't find any coverage of the Wes Streeting story on the BBC website. That's indefensible. Even the dear old Guardian has covered it, albeit with more focus on those who disagree with him.

OP posts:
AlisonDonut · 15/07/2024 21:59

My suspicion is they will go hard on the Tories for letting this happen under their watch.

They will be prepared for the first PMQs on this.

AlisonDonut · 15/07/2024 21:58

Abhannmor · 15/07/2024 18:07

Streeting has done a bit of a volte face on this hasn't he? Wasn't he part of a WhatsApp group whose purpose was to root out GC people in the Labour Party. A welcome convert if so. But he might flip again if it should become expedient.

It was an open Google spreadsheet but yes he was. I have screenshots.

lcakethereforeIam · 15/07/2024 21:47

Kathleen Stock in the Telegraph

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2024/07/15/wes-streeting-is-right-about-the-evils-of-puberty-blockers/

https://archive.ph/jfoAi paywall bypass

zibzibara · 15/07/2024 21:06

It's a pleasure to see these Labour MPs peaking now after insisting for so long that everyone who disagrees with trans ideology is a bigot.