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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Close friends falling victim to the 'girl mum' 'boy mum' camp

66 replies

Headsspinning · 11/07/2024 15:58

A fee minths have passed since I visited an old friend after the birth of her fourth daughter. I have two daughters of similar age to her eldest two. Another friend joined us for coffee and she is the mother of two boys. I don't know how the conversation got out of control but it turned nasty and I feel horrible and shameful, especially since it had happened a while ago and there has been radio silence.

My friend with the four daughters commented on how well her baby is doing and was up front in mentioning how some of her inlaws and husbands friends have made silly remarks about her husband being lonely in a house full of women, poor Daddy comments etc the usual guff. My friend laughed it off and said she always laughs at it and then remarked on how she was delighted to have her fourth girl and that she was sorry for stating the obvious. Then said "there's a reason I'm not a mum of boys, I don't think I'm suited to it or cut out for it and Mother Nature knows I wouldn't make a good mum of a son". My friend, who was feeding her baby boy, looked at her said "what's the difference, then?" And this is where it got heated. A lot of back and forth about how violent men can be, how the "good men" are hailed as "extra-special", the number of ex partners and and ex husbands who have abused, attacked and murdered women, global male violence; relational aggression in teenage girls, hormones, sexist beliefs, internalised misogyny, boy mums etc my friend said she didn't think girls were saints or that she had it all worked out on how to raise her girls, she just started crying about how she thinks women and girls are treated as victims. She then said the knky reason she would have wanted a son was to appease her inlaws her kept going on about wanting a grandson. Then after all thr back and forth, my friend with the boys got up, pushed her chair out and said I don't want to ever say your face again. Stay away from my sons and I hope you and your girls live a happy little life in girl hell and good luck to your husband". I feel horrible and guilty because I didn't say anything or do anything, I was a passive participant and feel like two friends are now lost due to categorising themselves as 'girl mums' or 'boy mums'. Anyone have any advice - should I reach out or leave things and see if I hear anything? It's been over two months and I would like to see both of them again and make amends.

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Headsspinning · 11/07/2024 20:26

Shortshriftandlethal · 11/07/2024 20:03

Has this thread been moved here from elsewhere? Why?

Maybe i started the conversation in the 'wrong' forum lol jeez people are so easily pissed off on mumnet. First time on it it so forgive me for not posting correctly lol

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Headsspinning · 11/07/2024 20:24

biscuitandcake · 11/07/2024 19:59

Do you think she took out her defensiveness/frustrations on the wrong person? It sounds likes she was getting flack for having only girls, so has been stewing over all the reasons that girls are good. And then unleashed that on your other friend who understandably reacted poorly.
I have seen it happen before where, e.g. stay at home mums feel judged for not working and then start talking about all the reasons it is better for their child that they are home with them. Which then offends the working mum's who responds and it gets toxic very quickly.

I am not sure if there is much you can do though...

I think its partly why - but then things got extreme on both ends. The mum of boys said some stereotypical things about girls too. For something so trivial, it felt too extreme to dismiss. And yes, maybe if people didn't give her such flack for having girls. I know this doesn't excuse the rant about men

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Shortshriftandlethal · 11/07/2024 20:03

Has this thread been moved here from elsewhere? Why?

biscuitandcake · 11/07/2024 19:59

Do you think she took out her defensiveness/frustrations on the wrong person? It sounds likes she was getting flack for having only girls, so has been stewing over all the reasons that girls are good. And then unleashed that on your other friend who understandably reacted poorly.
I have seen it happen before where, e.g. stay at home mums feel judged for not working and then start talking about all the reasons it is better for their child that they are home with them. Which then offends the working mum's who responds and it gets toxic very quickly.

I am not sure if there is much you can do though...

UtilitarianNameChange · 11/07/2024 19:56

Channel is a Discord thing, no?

I have children of both sexes and couldn’t be arsed with arguing about something so
arbitrary.

You get what you get and it’s all up
to the sperm 🤷‍♀️

The main difference between mine (apart from all having unique personalities) is the boy children ended up almost a foot taller than me and the girl children didn’t (and thus the girl children borrowed more of my clothes/shoes and I got loads of hand me downs from the boys - for a couple of years all my gym shirts came from my sons closet. Alas, they have stopped outgrowing things now).

Headsspinning · 11/07/2024 19:50

DeadbeatYoda · 11/07/2024 18:58

Your friend with the daughters was behaving like a right twat. It's galling enough when people say moronic things like 'god / nature knew I wouldn't be good at ...' for her to go in to spout such offensive crap about boys, she deserved everything she got. Silly mare.

Yes the Mother Nature comment I think is her feeling like her children were chosen for her. Many people think that about their children though, I know i do. I'm not religious though. Although I think the sexist comments about girls are weird too. We hear this all the time about poor Daddy etc it grinds my ears but I'm too old and been through too much of life to care. My friend with the four girls was convinced her inlaws were judging her and her daughters and o was thinking her brain went into overdrive and that when she went on a whole diatribe thinking boys aren't all that. They are both usually kind people. one drama that has blown everything up. It's quite pathetic that I've let this get to me so much. And I didn't intervene at the time. Was taken back by the intensity of the conversation and the exchange between two educated, kindhearted women. Her comments about her girls growing up and how if they choose to get marriedand/or plan to have children, there will be more competition for the good men. It was like sitting in on an extremist conversation and it has affected me.

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Headsspinning · 11/07/2024 19:43

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

Yes it happened in April, not quite a full 3 months. I've tried to reach out to no avail. Never knew how easy it was to avoid/block people the way they have me.

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DeadbeatYoda · 11/07/2024 18:58

Your friend with the daughters was behaving like a right twat. It's galling enough when people say moronic things like 'god / nature knew I wouldn't be good at ...' for her to go in to spout such offensive crap about boys, she deserved everything she got. Silly mare.

Headsspinning · 11/07/2024 18:53

baroqueandblue · 11/07/2024 18:32

I'm sorry for being unkind. I think the flip side of my critical comment that it all sounds a bit try-hard is the genuine terror I have of the danger to girls and women it so powerfully invokes.

I hope things get resolved between your friends, and you get the more harmonious dynamic back. It's lamentable that they've fallen out so hard, especially over the horrendous stuff some males do.

Perhaps this it. I have two daughters but wouldn't like to think my husband was disappointed. I think that's a little entitled and selfish to want one sex over the other ( but that's a differnt story). As I said, my friend was up front about the comments she has received by inlaws and friends - I told her we all get that. I was a little offended when she said boy mums are seen as superior. I don't think ill of men or boys - I think my 'boy mum' friend was rightly defensive. It was all so intense and was such a weird experience which is why I feel horrible and strange. My friend of daughters said she felt overwhelmed by the degree of male inflicted violence we hear about and how she thought she wasnt fit to bring up a boy and she thinks she wouldnt be strong enough hence her Mother Nature knows best comments.she also said that she didn't think all girls were saints and this is where my other friend talked about teenage girls and bullying etc A combination of hormones and maybe something serious going in re postnatal. thanks for the responses.

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baroqueandblue · 11/07/2024 18:32

Headsspinning · 11/07/2024 18:04

Yes you're right Miss Marple, this is all made up. Does that satisfy you? As for using the incorrect term, "channel" rather than forum - this is what you highlight? My account is detailed because I've been going over this in my head for a while, you know while balancing everyday life. So maybe you need to get out more. I appreciate it sounds dramatic but I'm not going to argue with you over something that has affected me and you smugly suggesting I'm exaggerating. They were two close friends which is why I am worried. I don't have a wide friendship group and I thought motherhood would give us a deeper connection, like I said my two girls are friends with her older daughters.
I may be needy and wanting to make a friendship work.

Edited

I'm sorry for being unkind. I think the flip side of my critical comment that it all sounds a bit try-hard is the genuine terror I have of the danger to girls and women it so powerfully invokes.

I hope things get resolved between your friends, and you get the more harmonious dynamic back. It's lamentable that they've fallen out so hard, especially over the horrendous stuff some males do.

Cycleorrun · 11/07/2024 18:18

Headsspinning · 11/07/2024 18:04

Yes you're right Miss Marple, this is all made up. Does that satisfy you? As for using the incorrect term, "channel" rather than forum - this is what you highlight? My account is detailed because I've been going over this in my head for a while, you know while balancing everyday life. So maybe you need to get out more. I appreciate it sounds dramatic but I'm not going to argue with you over something that has affected me and you smugly suggesting I'm exaggerating. They were two close friends which is why I am worried. I don't have a wide friendship group and I thought motherhood would give us a deeper connection, like I said my two girls are friends with her older daughters.
I may be needy and wanting to make a friendship work.

Edited

I can't help wondering if the mum of 4 girls had been subject to 'not another girl' comments and got upset. But took it out on the innocent mum of the boy? Perhaps her husband, much as he clearly adores his girls, was indeed disappointed at not having a son as well and it all got too much?

Everleigh13 · 11/07/2024 18:17

JKnight09 · 11/07/2024 16:33

If one of my friends sat and reeled off a list of all the ways my 2 year old son was going to grow up to be a violent, misogynist threat to women I would probably tell her where to shove it as well.

Yes, I agree. I’m actually a mum of two girls but I can’t stand it when boys are spoken of as if they are all would be abusers and misogynists. I also hate the terms ‘girl mum’ and ‘boy mum’ and would never use them myself.

Headsspinning · 11/07/2024 18:04

baroqueandblue · 11/07/2024 17:50

I thought this was a forum, but apparently it's a "channel" now? How trendy. Sort of goes with your very up to the minute list of coffee morning hot topics:

"how violent men can be, how the "good men" are hailed as "extra-special", the number of ex partners and and ex husbands who have abused, attacked and murdered women, global male violence; relational aggression in teenage girls, hormones, sexist beliefs, internalised misogyny, boy mums etc.. " Did any of you have time to pause for a sip of your mocha?

If this even happened, my advice would be to get out more.

Yes you're right Miss Marple, this is all made up. Does that satisfy you? As for using the incorrect term, "channel" rather than forum - this is what you highlight? My account is detailed because I've been going over this in my head for a while, you know while balancing everyday life. So maybe you need to get out more. I appreciate it sounds dramatic but I'm not going to argue with you over something that has affected me and you smugly suggesting I'm exaggerating. They were two close friends which is why I am worried. I don't have a wide friendship group and I thought motherhood would give us a deeper connection, like I said my two girls are friends with her older daughters.
I may be needy and wanting to make a friendship work.

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Tumblingjungleofchaos · 11/07/2024 18:03

JKnight09 · 11/07/2024 16:33

If one of my friends sat and reeled off a list of all the ways my 2 year old son was going to grow up to be a violent, misogynist threat to women I would probably tell her where to shove it as well.

Yes this!

I'm a feminist and believe in fighting for women's rights. But I don't act or speak as if ALL men are awful, violent and horrible. I know they are not!
How fucking rude and OTT she was. If I was the "boy mum" I'd be telling her to shove her friendship up her prized vagina as well.

GoFigure235 · 11/07/2024 17:51

FyodorDForever · 11/07/2024 17:42

The elephant in the room is that a good number of the cute baby boys will become abusers.
Of course no mum wants to believe it could be theirs but it has to be someone’s baby!
It is not a personal attack, just statistics.

Why not cull them at birth then 🙄? Or lock them all in cages to protect the ickle little baby girls?

Yes, what you've said is numerically true, but baby boys are not raised in a vacuum. They don't become abusers because they are fundamentally flawed from birth, but because we live in an unequal, violent, heavily gendered society that gives boys and men harmful messages about their role and what they can get away with.

And it starts with treating male babies differently from female babies. Less interactions, less affection, more rough play, more physical risk-taking encouraged.

baroqueandblue · 11/07/2024 17:50

I thought this was a forum, but apparently it's a "channel" now? How trendy. Sort of goes with your very up to the minute list of coffee morning hot topics:

"how violent men can be, how the "good men" are hailed as "extra-special", the number of ex partners and and ex husbands who have abused, attacked and murdered women, global male violence; relational aggression in teenage girls, hormones, sexist beliefs, internalised misogyny, boy mums etc.. " Did any of you have time to pause for a sip of your mocha?

If this even happened, my advice would be to get out more.

FyodorDForever · 11/07/2024 17:42

The elephant in the room is that a good number of the cute baby boys will become abusers.
Of course no mum wants to believe it could be theirs but it has to be someone’s baby!
It is not a personal attack, just statistics.

AbraAbraCadabra · 11/07/2024 17:17

JKnight09 · 11/07/2024 16:33

If one of my friends sat and reeled off a list of all the ways my 2 year old son was going to grow up to be a violent, misogynist threat to women I would probably tell her where to shove it as well.

This. I don't think "boy mum" was in the wrong at all. "Girl mum" was completely out of order to talk about those issues in that context.

From what you said "boy mum" wasn't choosing to identify as such as you suggest in your OP. She was just listening to girl mum sound off and was justifiably pissed off.

Headsspinning · 11/07/2024 17:10

MorrisZapp · 11/07/2024 16:08

They can't be that close if this ridiculous exchange has caused a permanent three way rift.

It was never like this before the second son and fourth daughter. I remember the girl mum was very sweet to her nephews and invited boys to her girls' birthday parties (sounds ridiculous but if she was so anti-boy child, why would she have them around her daughter). She did say during the meeting that her husband was distant after their last girl, and she felt she was imagining things. Our boy mum friend then said her husband is so hands on and loves taking them out. This is where it got personal. I chimed in to say girls and Dad's can have a bond too, obviously. Yes it's all dramatic and heavy but I'm trying to help us get over this. I think maybe my friend is taking on the sexist remarks and is laughing them off because she knows how stupid it all is. She did say she was worried her daughters would have a lot of competition for good men and thag she admires mums of sons as she feels they are treated as superior and they have birthed sons so j think there's a religious side to this that is impacting her mental health I'm more concerned about her mental health and this is why I came on her as j don't think I can't chat to my family or husband about this without feeling ridiculous.

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Sockmate123 · 11/07/2024 17:04

Talk about an intense lunch!!! 😳

Just ditch them both or continue the friendship independently with each although that's awkward. Although my bestie has a friend I genuinely cannot stand but I can 'tolerate' her at birthdays etc

Have you seen either of them since??

I have one of each btw and both equally challenging and rewarding but in different ways!

AzureAnt · 11/07/2024 16:55

Nah way too much drama going on here
They just enjoy their children and teach them to grow up as good and decent citizens, the boys AND the girls. I managed to do this fine with my sons. Nobody ever suggested they would grow up to be violent thugs.
They would be no friend of mine if they had!!

ladykale · 11/07/2024 16:55

JKnight09 · 11/07/2024 16:33

If one of my friends sat and reeled off a list of all the ways my 2 year old son was going to grow up to be a violent, misogynist threat to women I would probably tell her where to shove it as well.

Same

Headsspinning · 11/07/2024 16:52

biscuitandcake · 11/07/2024 16:31

It might be a stupid identity thing - I hate the self categorising as boy mum/girl mum. It could also possibly be that your girl mum friend has some sort of trauma etc. I know saying "trauma" excuses a lot of stuff but I personally know people who basically lived through a war zone and saw/experienced awful stuff. They did really struggle with being the idea of how to parent boys. (And also were weird with their daughters but that's another subject) Which is tragic and awful but I think the impact of very traumatic things like (for example) childhood rape on future parenting isn't talked about. Especially if it involves siblings etc. Either way it probably is for the best that the girl mum didn't have boys.

People stating a preference for girls is odd though - because wherever sex-selected IVF is used (including in the West) there is still a preference for boys. So there is a weird sort of dishonesty going on...

This is what came up, the whole preference for boys. Isn't that part of the "problem"? Why is there a preference, a sense of entitlement.. calle it naivety, but I don't understand the preference for a son or a daughter and thats why I feel stuck between two sides. The mum of daughters is hormonal but is also dealing with sexist remarks towards having daughters. I think we know she's capable and intelligent and mature enough to rise above remarks but even still, the fact that things are said about innocent girl children.

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GoFigure235 · 11/07/2024 16:50

Girl mum sounds a bit heavy. I probably wouldn't have reacted as vehemently as boy mum though but tbh she was a bit offensive.

Girl babies and boy babies are just that... Babies. Very little difference. Both nice if you like that sort of thing (I don't, I think most babies look like ugly little larvae but I'd never dream of saying that).

And all toddlers, both the girl and boy variety, are terrific. Crazy little bundles of energy just running everywhere, exploring everything and running their "owners" ragged.

It's a bit scary to think of girl mum sitting in the playground outwardly smiling, but inwardly honing in on any pint-sized male who might approach her precious girls as a potential threat 😬.

Headsspinning · 11/07/2024 16:45

As for checking in with them, I should have stated i have texted both of them and tried to contact them via various channels but no answer. And as for the previous poster, I'm not at loose ends, or bored - I'm taking a risk by reaching out on this channel where potentially this could be seen and traced back. I've spoken to my husband but I feel ridiculous and dramatic and think in the grand scheme of things it isn't worth pulling other people into it. I don't know how it came to the girl mum, boy mum think. Maybe because boys have been prized for so long. Who knows anyway thanks for the advice.

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