Used an 'all genders' bathroom today

I don't know how commonplace these 'urinals and cubicles' and 'urinals only' loos are in pubs these days, but from what I gather they are becoming more common, especially in cities. I noticed them when I was in London the other week. But surely this is a rather cynical ploy by the breweries/pub owners? Seems to me they calculate, say 75-80% of their custom are men, so therefore effectively give men access to the women's loos, thus freeing up more facilities. Obviously not good news for women. Pubs should surely be required by law to provide toilet facilities which are women-only. In an environment where people may be drunk, that's even more important, surely?

Why would I waste my time lying on the Internet? Believe me or don't I don't really care. I also won't be saying where I worked because it's a public forum.

It was utterly bizarre and our cleaning staff ended up refusing to clean because of it and rightly so. My point was simply that womens toilets can be grim and I don't think hygiene is gender specific. I use gender neutral toilets in my current work and they're always reasonable which I appreciate since I'm the one who currently cleans it while we're sourcing a cleaner. Anyone can be respectful or disrespectful of a shared space is my point. And no I've never smelt male toilets bad enough that they reeked from outside.

Thinking back to my younger days young women always seemed to go to the loos in pairs. Isn't that normal anymore?

Why do you think win green worldwide go to the loo in pairs or groups? It's not just to continue their chats - it's for safety. Safety against predatory men.

Your post reads as though you expect women to budge up and accept the dangers that come with men using women's toilets - and to take responsibility for keeping themselves safe from dangerous men invading spaces were women should reasonably expect to already be safe from them!

And maybe they eventually will but in the meantime we have to live with what we've got so it has to be single sex.

Thank you for thinking about toilet safety. I hope people start looking at all the practicalities of design features from lots of different viewpoints. Yes there’s a couple of tragic stories in schools of that too.

@Keeptoiletssafe I thought of you today. I travelled to a regional centre that has over the last few years had millions of dollars of state government funding poured into it. The public toilets I went to have been renovated to be much like those described by the OP, except some were labelled "Toilet" and "Toilet With Urinal" and three were labelled "Female Toilet." I do wonder how this compromise was arrived at.

There was a gap of about an inch under the door, but it was otherwise hermetically sealed. I may be mistaken, but it looked to me like the hook on the back of the door had been modified in the way that they are in psychiatric wards, to prevent them being hanging points for suicidal people (I've worked in acute wards as a psych nurse). I was going to look at all the cubicles to see if they were the same but I lost heart, it's so grim. Why is all this money being spent creating public amenities that then have to have more money spent on them to stop them being a suicide risk for vulnerable people?

Looking at the stories the girls who were raped went in on their own or were trying to get away from someone that went in with them. Theres lots from very recent years so either something has changed which makes it happen more or it’s being reported more.

I'd prefer cubicles even in a women only space so I'd like them to spend the money. Other people might feel like me so it might be a problem for others.

Thinking back to my younger days young women always seemed to go to the loos in pairs. Isn't that normal anymore?

The national theatre in london has unisex cubicles either side of a small corridor where you queue. I thought it was ok, everyone was civilised, though I expect the men hated queuing. My friend said you could just as easily be sexually harassed and that there's no safe space, but I think it's a good model. Maybe men will become less likely to splash about and will learn respect.

The Hippodrome is a very old theatre and I immediately thought this hadn't been done well. Where I live we have unisex toilets in the town, proper brick built, self contained, floor to ceiling doors. They are great. Doing this badly isn't acceptable.

Having said that DS was at a concert recently, apparently the queue for women's loo was very long so a group of women just walked into the mens. Although he said it was a bit odd using a urinal with women walking past he felt they all dealt with it like adults and no problems.

Apologies for mini-rant. It’s just researching how widespread this is for my argument to government over the last year has made me angry and upset as it’s so common. For anyone with teenagers, I would say tell them to go to nightclub toilets in pairs. Especially if they are female. I hate that women have to alter their behaviour but safety first.

Unfortunately able bodied and disabled people, particularly women, get pushed or followed in. Also the new designs will have a mechanism where they open outwards from the outside. So you could be in there without knowledge that someone is about to let themselves in.
This is why I realise politicians involved didn’t ‘get’ the designs. One even posted on Twitter showing a letter from a lady who said thank goodness for the toilet legislation because she’d been in assaulted in a toilet twice and men will stop at nothing. Well the new designs will just make it worse. Instead of the man bashing the door in, he can just let himself in. Also the occupant has no idea who is out there so can’t message or ring for help which may prevent an attack. However, men who will stop and nothing will now have a more ‘acoustically sound’ private cubicle with no witnesses. A toilet sign is not going to stop them. It doesn’t now.

"Be grateful we have toilets"?

In places where women do not have discrete toilet ( or any) toliet provision - they are in danger of assault and rape,

Nobody has an issue with boys in women's toilets - if they are clearly young and with their mother. I would not be happy sending my grandduagter into a mixed sex toilet block. I would be happy to send her alone into a women's toilet block, though. When your child gets to about 10 years of age, they shouldn't have to be accompanied into toilets.

There is no issue with single sex toilets. They achieve what they are meant to achieve - which is privacy and dignity. Third spaces and provisions are the obvious solution for those that are uncomfortable with the provision for their own sex.

Of the bovine variety.

Now try imagining a mixed sex access corridor in a busy night time venue........do you think women might feel safe in such circumstances?

If you try reading the many posts of women who explain exactly why they don't like or want mixed sex toilets you may find yourself developing some empathy and compassion.

There is no demand for mixed sex toilets comong from anywhere. The demand is for single sex provisions. And some trans identified male people are demanding access to women's provisions.

Those who actively want mixed sex provisions could maybe suggest to providers a discrete provision that meets their need - rather than dismissing the expressed needs of many many more.

It's odd that no-one picks up that fully enclosed toilets with wash basin and loo are not safe. Anyone could be hiding in there - I always thrust the door backwards so anyone behind it be hit - and cameras are easy to conceal by anyone who wants to do that!

They can't be 'elsewhere'. Women are not going to want to use a sanitary bin in the public area. Maybe you missed it? Even so, it sounds utterly grim. Who thinks 'all gender' lavatories are a good idea? Not TiMs, for sure, as there is no validation there (one good thing about them, I suppose?).

And who exactly is going to spend all the money to:

• Get planning permission from the landlord
• Get in new architects
• Re-design shop floor
• Rip out and rebuild
• Re-plumb
• Fit out

....all so your shop/cafe/clinic/library/office has less floor space?

Less floor space leading to...

• Less footfall
• Less seated trade
• Less revenue
• Lower profit margins
• Few jobs

...and why do all this when we have a system that works perfectly well as long as it's used right?

It’s so basic to just let women have their own single sex toilets. Why change it.

@Peonies12 Nice of you to edit to get in a little dig at women who do find this important, though!

Enclosed cubicles are not really a safe option.

Maybe the issue is they need to clean more. Toilets should just be enclosed cubicles, so much easier. And much easier as a parent with different sex child. and be grateful we have toilets, lots don't. Honestly blows my mind on MN what people actually get annoyed about.

Exactly. It's the same with AI facial recognition programmes. They are so key in border control in a world in which international terrorist and people trafficking organisations are more mobile than they've ever been. Problem is, facial recognition software is also a great big terf. It knows whether you're male or female because the male skull has a bigger more jutting brow and narrower philtrum. You can't get rid of those things with make up or lipstick or a spinny spinny skirt..

I've seen TRAs online argue that FRS should be programmed to 'recognise' transwomen, or even, not determine sex at all. Well we could do that but it'll give people traffickers more of a free reign. So we're just going to let 1000s of vulnerable people suffer so that a few dudes can get that good good 'gender euphoria' going through an airport? PLEASE.