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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Starmer tw don't have the right to use women only toilets

383 replies

lcakethereforeIam · 02/07/2024 00:58

It's a headline in the Telegraph. Unfortunately when I archive it it goes to an article about that twat Ashworth refusing to answer. So, I've screenshot the headline

Starmer tw don't have the right to use women only toilets
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Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/07/2024 11:29

I thought it was pretty horrific. There's no getting through to these people, is there?

No. They are misogynistic to their core. Lots of frothing men saying fuck you a lot, and one #bekind, "why does it matter to anyone" woman from what I can see.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/07/2024 11:26

And tell men not to threaten hassle etc trans women and to accept them as males in their spaces and to broaden their concept of masculinity to include different fashion expressions: dresses, wigs, make up. A man is entirely free to dress as he pleases. In the men's Why is it always women that are told to accommodate men

YY. But I don't think the majority use women's spaces because they feel threatened by men, to put it mildly.

Boudiccaofsteel · 02/07/2024 11:25

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/07/2024 10:52

When are we going to hear how men will be told not to even attempt entry to places where they are not wanted, with our without a penis, GRC or makeup and wig and a dress? When are we going to hear that men should be kind to other men?

Exactly. At this point this is all I want. Tell all men they aren't entitled to use women's spaces. Back up women when they say they feel uncomfortable with men in their space. Decent men do.

And tell men not to threaten hassle etc trans women and to accept them as males in their spaces and to broaden their concept of masculinity to include different fashion expressions: dresses, wigs, make up. A man is entirely free to dress as he pleases. In the men's Why is it always women that are told to accommodate men

EasternStandard · 02/07/2024 11:24

RoseUnder · 02/07/2024 11:15

Sadly facts are not very popular or influential these days

Social media has seen to that

Labour have seen to that with the GRA and what’s incoming

duc748 · 02/07/2024 11:23

It's worth reading the Reddit thread I linked.

I thought it was pretty horrific. There's no getting through to these people, is there?

Keeptoiletssafe · 02/07/2024 11:23

The option this government came up with was to go with total privacy over safety. The existing standard single sex public toilet block have toilet cubicles with gaps top and bottom of the doors. None of the new designs from this October mention toilet door gaps. Two of the four are fully enclosed. One single sex design (for frail people) is illustrated with a full height door. The other is not specified. We now have the real possibility that people will be in acoustically sound, fully private little cubicles with full height doors and designed to be unlockable from the outside. The number of deaths, injuries and assaults in these cubicles will go up whilst hygiene (ventilation and inability to sanitise the floor) will go down.

Why didn’t the government consider disabilities, age (frailty), sex etc in the designs, because they would realise gaps in door doors are vital to see if someone has collapsed or prevent someone from being attacked?

Well they did commission a report into toilet design for people with long term health conditions and disabilities. There was no mention of heart conditions, epilepsy, diabetes, menorrhagia, asthma or discussion of other conditions that could lead to collapse. The evidence to support fully enclosing toilets literally boils down to this sentence: ‘A better solution, supported by many transactivists, and increasingly found in trendy nightclubs and restaurants, is to eliminate gender-segregated facilities entirely and treat the public restroom as one single open space with fully enclosed stalls.’

I hope future governments realise ‘solutions’ are only as good as the data that is being inputted into them. They need to make sure the reports they commission stick to their remit. As it is there has been no safety analysis on removing gaps from toilet designs.

Pupils have been the guinea pigs for similar designs in schools. It has not gone well - this sums it up:
“Kids would go in there to have sex, to drink alcohol. They’d push other kids in and lock themselves in with them. They’d block the drains and flood the corridor.” Another responded: “The toilets were really smelly and unpleasant. Because they were fully enclosed spaces they weren’t properly ventilated, and harder to clean.”
One teacher was worried someone could collapse unnoticed in a completely enclosed cubicle. They said: “The CCTV in the corridor was only any good retrospectively. The toilets had turn locks, so you could open them from the outside if you needed to, but you couldn’t hear through the door, couldn’t see whether there was one or two people in there, or if someone had collapsed.” (Walesonline 28.01.24)

To the next government: the answer is not to enclose toilets. Safety should come before privacy. And vulnerable people suffer most.

Thelnebriati · 02/07/2024 11:22

Any chance we can get him to leave the spousal exit clause in the Gender Recognition Act?

FOJN · 02/07/2024 11:22

subtletyisntlostonme · 02/07/2024 06:26

This was my reply from my local candidate.

"Women only spaces" "single sex services"

I think underthinker is correct:

*I've always interpreted Starmer's remarks on this to mean he does believe in some female only spaces (where female does not include males with grcs) but those spaces are a very narrow set, and don't include places like toilets and changing rooms. Nothing here changes my view on that. I think the headline writer has inferred a meaning not intended by KS."

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 02/07/2024 11:21

BloodyHellKenAgain · 02/07/2024 10:27

That is also my preferred outcome. I really want the Torys to rebuild and be a strong opposition.
What I don't want is an huge unfettered Labour majority and Reform to do to the Torys what RN in France have done to the Republic party.
I like to keep it moderate and a bit left, a bit right 🙂

What's happening in France today is absolutely fascinating.

ResisterOfTwaddleRex · 02/07/2024 11:18

RoseUnder · 02/07/2024 11:09

@JanefromLondon1 - thanks, and Yes, it is a fact-based issue which has been turned into a culture war issue, for politically-driven motives

Like climate change
Like racism
Like abortion
Like immigration
Like vaccines
Like religion
Do you need me to go on? These are real issues with facts and data, that are hijacked for political purposes to be whipped up to generate heightened emotions, feelings of identity, safety, belief, morality, belonging to serve a wider strategy... If only the issue was discussed on a factual basis!

Edited

Then they could have done their job as the Opposition, and talked about facts.

Instead they enabled the Tory TRAs, and the Holyrood and Senedd TRAs by never holding the Tories to account on the dismantling of safeguarding for children and vulnerable adults.

They sent people like Lloyd Russell-Moyle to debates on sex education, to say things like how teachers should teach children how to "safely" engage in self-asphyxiation. Or people like Kate Osborne to the WESC, where she told lies about Kemi, and ignored evidence of harmful sex education material presented to her.

The fact they didn't hold the government to account is a massive red flag. It more than indicates how they'll behave if elected.

They won't send anyone to MN from Labour HQ. They won't send anyone to woman's hour. At the same time, radio silence from the TRAs.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/07/2024 11:15

This is what he said two years ago

Starmer, formerly the director of public prosecutions, the most senior prosecutor in England and Wales, said: “A woman is a female adult, and in addition to that trans women are women, and that is not just my view, that is actually the law. It has been the law through the combined effects of the 2004 [Gender Recognition] Act and the 2010 [Equality] Act.”

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/mar/13/jk-rowling-keir-starmer-misrepresents-law-woman-definition-labour

RoseUnder · 02/07/2024 11:15

EasternStandard · 02/07/2024 11:11

We like facts here. You cannot change sex and so on

It’s Labour that has the issue

Sadly facts are not very popular or influential these days

Social media has seen to that

RoseUnder · 02/07/2024 11:14

Look, I am with you all. Very much so.

But I am a FWR board member who still believes Keir Starmer has integrity, and this Labour government, if elected, will do more good for women than a Conservative one, or than the Lib Dems or other smaller parties.

I hope my instincts are right. I'll continue to fight for women's rights personally though, including inside the party and in all aspects of my life - including encouraging young women to go into politics, bolster efforts of Rosie Duffield et al

Tallisker · 02/07/2024 11:14

Now, the question is; which civil servants will be advising the new Government on this? We need to scrutinse the experts behind the throne.

Exactly the same civil servants who have been advising the most recent government. The ones who have embedded 'gender-neutral' language across all policies and wear rainbow lanyards. Until the formation of SEEN which started to challenge policy wording which contravened various Acts...

I imagine SEEN will be disbanded very quickly.

EasternStandard · 02/07/2024 11:11

RoseUnder · 02/07/2024 11:09

@JanefromLondon1 - thanks, and Yes, it is a fact-based issue which has been turned into a culture war issue, for politically-driven motives

Like climate change
Like racism
Like abortion
Like immigration
Like vaccines
Like religion
Do you need me to go on? These are real issues with facts and data, that are hijacked for political purposes to be whipped up to generate heightened emotions, feelings of identity, safety, belief, morality, belonging to serve a wider strategy... If only the issue was discussed on a factual basis!

Edited

We like facts here. You cannot change sex and so on

It’s Labour that has the issue

RoseUnder · 02/07/2024 11:09

@JanefromLondon1 - thanks, and Yes, it is a fact-based issue which has been turned into a culture war issue, for politically-driven motives

Like climate change
Like racism
Like abortion
Like immigration
Like vaccines
Like religion
Do you need me to go on? These are real issues with facts and data, that are hijacked for political purposes to be whipped up to generate heightened emotions, feelings of identity, safety, belief, morality, belonging to serve a wider strategy... If only the issue was discussed on a factual basis!

EasternStandard · 02/07/2024 11:08

RoseUnder · 02/07/2024 10:58

Starmer's not slippery. He was a human rights lawyer. I know people who worked with him on this area. I don't think he's had a personality transplant .I think he's having to compromise - and walk a knife edge to get into power.

Don't forget that since Labour was created 102 years ago, only 3 leaders have won a General election: Atlee, Wilson and Blair.

Starmer has to pass through the eye of a needle to win.

Personally, I think he has integrity and a vision that Labour can do good, based on past evidence, and his mainly working class, state-school educated shadow cabinet. I don't think he's driven by ego or for power.

But to win, serious compromises have to be made, and I'm sorry Labour got ensnared in the culture war trap, stirred up by the Tories, Russian disinfo cyber squads, and the unquestionably strategic Stonewall + Trans lobbyists.

I’m sure you are sorry if you are batting for Labour but you’re incorrect on who is pushing on this

It’s women on FWR, and off mn who care about single sex spaces and safeguarding dc

WinterTrees · 02/07/2024 11:05

But to win, serious compromises have to be made, and I'm sorry Labour got ensnared in the culture war trap, stirred up by the Tories, Russian disinfo cyber squads, and the unquestionably strategic Stonewall + Trans lobbyists

If winning means deliberately and permanently chopping the cause of women's rights off at the knees - women being far and away the most marginalised and oppressed demographic in history and also 51% of the population - maybe a potential leader with a shred of integrity or decency would consider the price of victory too high?

Hairyesterdaygonetoday · 02/07/2024 11:03

CriticalCondition · 02/07/2024 09:57

Re the tabloid and broadsheet terminology. Until about 30 years ago all serious newspapers, whatever their political colour, were printed on very large pages eg The Times, The Telegraph, The Guardian, The Independent. The sensationalist ones like The Sun and The Mirror were printed in a smaller tabloid format. They were sometimes referred to as 'redtops' because their masthead was red. In the 90s some of the serious newspapers changed to the smaller tabloid format although they preferred to call it 'compact' to avoid the association with the sensationalist ones. The content and political leanings didn't change.

I read The Independent in broadsheet form every morning on the tube. Seasoned commuters on crowded trains half folded the pages vertically to avoid getting in someone else's space.

I'm old.

Ah I remember that. Reading upside-down news headlines on the tube. More variety on the way to work than coming home, because there were lots of morning papers but only two evening papers, then only one.

Sorry, totally irrelevant! I’m so old I remember when Labour was proudly socialist. And when Pride was about same-sex love and attraction, not sex fetishism and misogyny.

JanefromLondon1 · 02/07/2024 11:02

RoseUnder · 02/07/2024 10:58

Starmer's not slippery. He was a human rights lawyer. I know people who worked with him on this area. I don't think he's had a personality transplant .I think he's having to compromise - and walk a knife edge to get into power.

Don't forget that since Labour was created 102 years ago, only 3 leaders have won a General election: Atlee, Wilson and Blair.

Starmer has to pass through the eye of a needle to win.

Personally, I think he has integrity and a vision that Labour can do good, based on past evidence, and his mainly working class, state-school educated shadow cabinet. I don't think he's driven by ego or for power.

But to win, serious compromises have to be made, and I'm sorry Labour got ensnared in the culture war trap, stirred up by the Tories, Russian disinfo cyber squads, and the unquestionably strategic Stonewall + Trans lobbyists.

I'm a bit confused?? When did denying something that is a biological fact become a culture war??

Ereshkigalangcleg · 02/07/2024 11:00

Agree @Chariothorses

murasaki · 02/07/2024 10:59

It's so obviously a last minute panic over a large number of votes that it's almost funny.

It'll switch back to twaw on Friday.

JanefromLondon1 · 02/07/2024 10:59

IdLikeToBeAFraser · 02/07/2024 10:02

Personally, I think KS never wanted men in women's toilets. He just was too scared to stand up and say it and hoped the issue would just go away. this is his very small step towards realising that the issue isn't going away and he's going to have to alienate someone, sometime.

As LibDems have gone full on the other way, again, I am sticking with labour.

So he said and double downed on something numerous times (you say he didn't believe) as to not upset a very very small percentage of the population, whilst upsetting the majority of the population. Mmmmmmmmm???

Is this a man you want on the world stage having to have serious conversations with world leaders with red buttons at their fingertips??

WinterTrees · 02/07/2024 10:58

Starmer's last minute tossing of an opinion isn't convincing, but it is something to use once Labour are in power

I think this is a very important. Totally shit that we have such flimsy straws to clutch, but it's something.

RoseUnder · 02/07/2024 10:58

Starmer's not slippery. He was a human rights lawyer. I know people who worked with him on this area. I don't think he's had a personality transplant .I think he's having to compromise - and walk a knife edge to get into power.

Don't forget that since Labour was created 102 years ago, only 3 leaders have won a General election: Atlee, Wilson and Blair.

Starmer has to pass through the eye of a needle to win.

Personally, I think he has integrity and a vision that Labour can do good, based on past evidence, and his mainly working class, state-school educated shadow cabinet. I don't think he's driven by ego or for power.

But to win, serious compromises have to be made, and I'm sorry Labour got ensnared in the culture war trap, stirred up by the Tories, Russian disinfo cyber squads, and the unquestionably strategic Stonewall + Trans lobbyists.