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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Miriam Cates

282 replies

CassieMaddox · 01/07/2024 23:54

New report says she was trustee at a church while gay conversion therapy was happening. The kind of conversion therapy that involves exorcism of demons.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4ngprp5xdvo

As a director and trustee at the charity behind the church, external from September 2016 to September 2018, Mrs Cates, had safeguarding responsibilities for those who attended

Thought this might interest some posters on here. Not sure I would trust her with safeguarding after this, if indeed she retains her seat.

A close-up of former MP Miriam Cates

Miriam Cates: Tory candidate was trustee of church that ‘endorsed’ conversion therapy

A report finds St Thomas Philadelphia church in Sheffield had "supported" conversion therapy.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c4ngprp5xdvo

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Imnobody4 · 02/07/2024 23:32

TicklishLemur · 02/07/2024 23:16

‘I’m against gay conversion therapy but don’t think anyone should be held accountable for it’ 😂

Holding the right people accountable is pretty important.

TicklishLemur · 02/07/2024 23:30

Sloejelly · 02/07/2024 20:24

I agree, where the mention of this on the BBC, let alone the condemnation of MPs who promoted WPATH or Stonewall?

It is also notable that once again a Christian MP is being targeted, yet nothing is said of Muslim MPs or candidates. Look at all those MP candidates promoting Hamas in Palestine despite the treatment of LGBTQ+ there. Where is the LBGTQ+ safeguarding there?

The difference is that mumsnetters aren’t bending over backwards to praise Muslim extremists or minimise the disgusting behaviour of those praising Hamas. If there are any threads where that’s happening please let me know because I’ll be just as loud there.

TicklishLemur · 02/07/2024 23:25

ScrollingLeaves · 02/07/2024 16:53

Your thread is about a church in which a young man with an extreme Christian upbringing underwent prayers or a ritual at a church, against his being gay, which he described both as ‘an intense prayer team meeting’ and then, an exorcism, though the church denied that it was an exorcism.

He was a young adult at the time, a youth leader in the church. He was not forced into this prayer session or exorcism except by his own beliefs that it was wrong to be gay, which he had been brought up in by his own family who were part of an ‘extreme Christian cult’. Mistaken though many people would think those beliefs are some people hold them.

After what he went through, he felt empty at first but then concluded he could be gay and still hold on to his faith, though this church did not want him in his role there because he was in a gay relationship.
There are Christian Churches where the leaders believe it is against the teachings of the Bible to be gay.

This happened two years before Miriam Cates was there so there is no point in suggesting her safeguarding of this man fell short.

As to any implication she believes in converting gay people through prayer, either because she attended this church or was a trustee there two years after what this man described happening to him, there isn’t any evidence one way or another.

There is evidence though that she is against making young gay people believe that being gay means they are really trans and should undergo harmful practices in order to change.

Many argue that vulnerable young adults take cross sex hormones of their own free will, so it shouldn’t be anyone else’s business. The rest of us recognise what a ridiculous argument that is. It’s just as ridiculous to see you making it in this context. As if a young man whose entire community and family belong to a church, and who is not welcome as he is, has true ‘free will’ when it comes to abusive and coercive attempts to change his sexuality.

TicklishLemur · 02/07/2024 23:16

Imnobody4 · 02/07/2024 19:25

This thread isn't about conversion therapy at all. It's about finding a any stick to add to a bonfire to burn Miriam Cates on.
I'm against conversion therapy absolutely which is why I'm concerned at all the Wpath and Tavistock stuff. I'm also against witch burning.

‘I’m against gay conversion therapy but don’t think anyone should be held accountable for it’ 😂

TicklishLemur · 02/07/2024 23:08

UtilitarianNameChange · 02/07/2024 15:15

You are the one doing the conflating!

Religion/religious practice is not and has never been ‘therapy’.

Don’t be ridiculous. Conversion ‘therapy’ is not therapy, it is abuse given a euphemistic name. Religious organisations are by and large the biggest perpetrators of it. You are the only one conflating issues, considering that this incident involved attempts to make a gay person straight! It has nothing to do with exploratory therapy for gender distressed children.

TicklishLemur · 02/07/2024 23:04

CassieMaddox · 02/07/2024 13:40

This thread is fascinating.
Similar reports about the impact of LGBT groups and their practices on young people would be (rightly) viewed with alarm in terms of the pressure they might be applying. In fact that absolutely would be described as abuse by many on here.

What is it about this that is different? Why is "strong social pressure" within a church different to "social contagion" or "brainwashing"?

Because it doesn’t count when it’s done by people they like 🙄

CassieMaddox · 02/07/2024 22:52

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Precisely what the Labour party under Corbyn said about GC women. Or the Greens or Lib Dems.

This is why the double standards are stark to me.

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LaundryOnTheLine · 02/07/2024 22:45

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CassieMaddox · 02/07/2024 22:45

Thelnebriati · 02/07/2024 22:41

The Labour Party and the Greens have both kicked GC women out and told us we aren't welcome any more. It never stopped them taking our money and labour in the past. I wonder what changed?

Derail.

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CassieMaddox · 02/07/2024 22:45

Imnobody4 · 02/07/2024 22:39

What, like has happened to numerous gender critical women, particularly those banned from their political tribe, like me.

Yes. Hence why I'm so surprised at the "nothing to see here" response to this report.

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Thelnebriati · 02/07/2024 22:41

The Labour Party and the Greens have both kicked GC women out and told us we aren't welcome any more. It never stopped them taking our money and labour in the past. I wonder what changed?

Imnobody4 · 02/07/2024 22:39

CassieMaddox · 02/07/2024 22:25

Plus socially ostracised someone from their community is psychologically harmful so I consider banning him from the church to be pretty extreme too.

What, like has happened to numerous gender critical women, particularly those banned from their political tribe, like me.

CassieMaddox · 02/07/2024 22:38

Mrs Cates told the BBC: “I do not and have never advocated for what is referred to as “gay conversion therapy”.
“I have never participated in such activities, and I was not aware – nor was there any way that I could have been aware of Mr Drapper’s allegations, which were not – as far as I was aware – raised during the time that I was on the leadership of the Church, and only surfaced after I left."

You think they left out her condemning it?

I think its more likely she condemned it this morning after having seen how much media traction the story was getting. Better late than never though.

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Thelnebriati · 02/07/2024 22:35

Glad she's condemning it, shame she didn't say that when the BBC requested a comment.

You don't know what the BBC journalist asked her, or what she replied. You only know what they chose to print.

CassieMaddox · 02/07/2024 22:31

If you can't play the ball, foul the player

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LaundryOnTheLine · 02/07/2024 22:28

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CassieMaddox · 02/07/2024 22:27

BackToLurk · 02/07/2024 21:15

The fact she hasn't condemned it

Except she has

"I have never been involved with or aware of such ‘therapy’ taking place and strongly condemn such practices."

https://x.com/miriam_cates/status/1808053553161740685

OK, thanks for that. That was this morning after I started the thread and I haven't been on her twitter. Glad she's condemning it, shame she didn't say that when the BBC requested a comment.

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CassieMaddox · 02/07/2024 22:25

Plus socially ostracised someone from their community is psychologically harmful so I consider banning him from the church to be pretty extreme too.

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CassieMaddox · 02/07/2024 22:24

MalagaNights · 02/07/2024 21:40

It's perfectly legal to hold the belief that homosexuality is a sin.

It's perfectly legal to voluntarily engage in prayer around that.

It's perfectly legal to teach your children homosexuality is wrong.

Lots of people may think that will traumatise gay children. Maybe. But there are lots of ways of bringing up children that are legal but others disapprove of.
Like gender neutral crap for instance. Not illegal.
Or being a vegan.
Or in a polyamorous pod.
Or sending them to boarding school.
Not illegal.

I think some people confuse conversion therapy with never being able to say homosexuality is wrong.
It's partly why the ban is such a bad idea: where do we draw a line between free speech and association, or a harmful practice?

And anyway if anyone is really worried about religious communities being anti gay it's really not the Christians who are the biggest problems here...

I'm talking about the sort of practices covered in the Barnardo's report. Telling people they have demons inside them, telling them they inherited them and need to get them out through prayer to be cured.
That's a bit different to teaching that homosexuality is a sin.

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CassieMaddox · 02/07/2024 22:14

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Yes. We can agree on that 😂

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LaundryOnTheLine · 02/07/2024 22:12

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Imnobody4 · 02/07/2024 22:05

There is no evidence MC knew anything about this alleged incident. A formal complaint was made after she left. She was a trustee not safeguarding lead. If she is guilty then the whole board is guilty but no one else has been named.

She has stated she does not support conversion practices.

The BBC has seen social media posts from Mrs Cates made in November 2012, which suggest she attended a conference hosted by a third party at the church which Mr Drapper has described as an “exorcism training weekend”.
Audio from the conference, which the BBC has not verified, suggests it involved practising a prayer of repentance “for giving place to any demons … including demons of… homosexuality… lesbianism”.

Mrs Cates denies attending an “exorcism training weekend”.

If this couldn't have been used to smear MC it would never had been published or leaked.

MalagaNights · 02/07/2024 21:40

It's perfectly legal to hold the belief that homosexuality is a sin.

It's perfectly legal to voluntarily engage in prayer around that.

It's perfectly legal to teach your children homosexuality is wrong.

Lots of people may think that will traumatise gay children. Maybe. But there are lots of ways of bringing up children that are legal but others disapprove of.
Like gender neutral crap for instance. Not illegal.
Or being a vegan.
Or in a polyamorous pod.
Or sending them to boarding school.
Not illegal.

I think some people confuse conversion therapy with never being able to say homosexuality is wrong.
It's partly why the ban is such a bad idea: where do we draw a line between free speech and association, or a harmful practice?

And anyway if anyone is really worried about religious communities being anti gay it's really not the Christians who are the biggest problems here...

BackToLurk · 02/07/2024 21:15

CassieMaddox · 02/07/2024 21:00

I don't always believe what people say when it looks like they are in the wrong. The fact she hasn't condemned it and "can't recall" the event she went on makes me suspicious.

The fact she hasn't condemned it

Except she has

"I have never been involved with or aware of such ‘therapy’ taking place and strongly condemn such practices."

https://x.com/miriam_cates/status/1808053553161740685

x.com

https://x.com/miriam_cates/status/1808053553161740685

Sloejelly · 02/07/2024 21:09

CassieMaddox · 02/07/2024 21:05

Really. I have no problem with Christians. I have a problem with homophobic Christians, those who campaign to remove womens bodily authority and those who think women should be at home having babies. Especially if they position themselves as a champion of women. Because I'm a feminist.

You can assert "a Muslim wouldn't be treated this way" but you actually have no evidence of that, because there is no equivalent. So that's your own fear and prejudice showing I think. As well as probably a bit of an issue admitting there is a problem here.

Of course there is evidence - it was quite clear in the difference between how Kate and Humza were treated.

And where is your criticism of homophobic Muslims who oppose abortion and encourage women to stay at home and have babies?

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