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Stonewall has expelled crossdressers from the trans umbrella - Sex Matters

58 replies

IwantToRetire · 01/07/2024 01:49

Stonewall’s long-standing definition of “trans” changed on 27th June 2024 to drop “crossdresser” from the list. Before then, it said:

“Trans people may describe themselves using one or more of a wide variety of terms, including (but not limited to) transgender, transsexual, gender-queer (GQ), gender-fluid, non-binary, gender-variant, crossdresser, genderless, agender, nongender, third gender, bi-gender, trans man, trans woman, trans masculine, trans feminine and neutrois.”

The so-called “trans community” is not a homogenous group but a list of identity options, some of which, like “neutrois”, no one can define. Crossdressers are familiar to many of us, though, and in the past would not have been described as trans. It always seemed odd that Stonewall’s definition included them. It has worked well for crossdressers, though, normalising their behaviour and giving them protection. Calling a man a part-time crossdresser could see you branded transphobic and even cost you your job – even if the man in question did not claim to be a woman.

Article continues at https://sex-matters.org/posts/updates/stonewall-redefines-trans-to-exclude-crossdressers/

Stonewall redefines trans to exclude crossdressers - Sex Matters

Stonewall has expelled crossdressers from the trans umbrella Why do some men crossdress? Are crossdressers no longer trans? Stonewall has expelled crossdressers from the trans umbrella Stonewall’s long-standing definition of “trans” changed on 27th Jun...

https://sex-matters.org/posts/updates/stonewall-redefines-trans-to-exclude-crossdressers

OP posts:
borntobequiet · 01/07/2024 19:44

FictionalCharacter · 01/07/2024 14:26

I see they’ve kept “transsexual” despite the activists saying it’s an offensive term.

Maybe they want to reclaim it and make transsexual the new transgender, and claim they want to clarify things while actually muddying the waters far more.

The weird thing is that everybody knew (back in the olden days) that transsexuals hadn’t actually changed their sex, whereas many people (who should know better) nowadays think that transgender people have.

Signalbox · 01/07/2024 19:13

I guarantee that anyone using this term in relation to any cross dressing man in future will be accused of being transphobic.

MsFogi · 01/07/2024 18:18

So does this mean that when Labour gets in blokes won’t even need to play dress up to persuade anyone they ´are’ a woman. They can just say they feel like a woman, carry on wearing their suit to work and their shorts to rugby but be given a GRC so no one can challenge them?

Original poster
IwantToRetire · 01/07/2024 18:13

Its also concerning that they seem to have just slipped this out, and only because Sex Matters picked up on it that it is now public.

Would have been nice is the offered an explantion and included an apology for being so over the top about their trans rainbow without considering the negative consequences on others.

Also makes you wonder, whether they are trimming down their position to in fact regain funders and organisations to align with them.

But suspect as said up thread this is about preparing the ground for changing the law re gaining a GRA.

OP posts:
LonginesPrime · 01/07/2024 18:06

I suspect there are two reasons for this change:

  1. to distance trans people from AGP and to more plausibly pretend that AGP is a completely separate condition that's nothing to do with trans people; and

  2. so that the current questions to politicians along the lines of "so any man who puts on a dress is allowed in the women's toilets, then?" can be refuted by saying that trans people are different and that there is something very special, magical and genuinely transformative about a transwoman putting on a dress that makes it completely different from those pesky cross-dressers and men with AGP.

Original poster
IwantToRetire · 01/07/2024 16:58

It was too late and I was too tired when I posted this to try and work out why they have done this (and why now)

Both this seem to be more than plausible

  1. more about dodging the Cass Review to re-establish puberty blockers
  2. part of the ploy to get Self ID enacted

And with the info (posted on other threads) about ex Stonewall member of staff now employed as advisor to Labour extremely worrying

OP posts:
Hyperions · 01/07/2024 14:44

Whatever, it won't benefit women.

RoyalCorgi · 01/07/2024 14:30

Sadly, it's too late to remove "cross-dressers" from the definition of "trans" used in Scotland's Hate Crime and Public Order Act.

FictionalCharacter · 01/07/2024 14:26

I see they’ve kept “transsexual” despite the activists saying it’s an offensive term.

UpThePankhurst · 01/07/2024 14:22

Wonder where he plans to build the gulags?

AlisonDonut · 01/07/2024 13:44

Being that he said he will end the culture wars on day one, we won't have long to wait.

Shortshriftandlethal · 01/07/2024 08:39

I very much suspect this is part of the ploy to get Self ID enacted. Being trans is not about 'living as woman' for two years, wearing women's clothes, using women's toilets and changing rooms; it is about self declaration and how you feel.

EvelynBeatrice · 01/07/2024 08:39

Under the controversial Scottish Hate Crime and Public Order Act the category of transgender identity explicitly includes a person who cross- dresses.

This seems to me to include every woman I know when not wearing a skirt.

TinselAngel · 01/07/2024 08:36

Couldn't it also be because they might consider it outdated terminology given everyone is trans now?

Shortshriftandlethal · 01/07/2024 08:25

You can challenge or question someone's clothing choices because they are clearly visible; whereas you cannot challenge or question someone's feelings because only that person knows what they are.

AlisonDonut · 01/07/2024 08:01

I am a cynical whining little fucker but I expect this is more about dodging the Cass Review to re-establish puberty blockers than anything.

So they can say they aren't giving them to kids who just want to wear the 'wrong' clothes. But for all the other 'conditions'.

I reckon that is the deal.

nauticant · 01/07/2024 07:53

Following comments above, the intention isn't for "crossdressers" to be excluded from the definition of "trans", it's to make sure this group of people is still there but rebranded as something else because otherwise it's too revealing about what's going on.

nauticant · 01/07/2024 07:45

Ponderingwindow · 01/07/2024 01:56

Seeing as there should be no restrictions on who wears a particular item of clothing, how could anyone even be labeled a cross dresser in 2024?

If we're talking about what words are supposed to mean, it's when there's an element of sexual pleasure. Which is revealing in terms of the word being part of the definition of "trans" in the first place.

UpThePankhurst · 01/07/2024 07:37

UtopiaPlanitia · 01/07/2024 03:06

I'm suspicious 🤔

  1. Stonewall have for years been fighting for absolutely any man who wants it (including crossdressers) to be be covered by The Trans Umbrella.
  2. And they have been promoting the idea that the crossdressing men under this umbrella are thus currently covered by Equality Act 2010 (gender reassignment) and probably eventually by an amended GRA 2004 (amended to require reduced burden of proof or actual Self-ID).
  3. And so employers have been 'encouraged' to get ahead of what Stonewall are telling them will be the law.

I see no credible reason as to why Stonewall would reverse their previous position AND do it so quietly AND there not be a HUGE fuss from the usual quarters.

Edited

I do.

I'm afraid at this point it's bloody obvious that Labour and these extremist organisations have a deal for Starmer et al to make a few vague noises about managing to summon up a little care for women on the understanding that once those women have put the tick in the box, Labour will skip with Stonewall into the sunset of the total destruction of women's rights and equalities.

Remember the 70s and Labour in bed with/totally controlled by insane unions? It's about the same, except a hell of a lot more dangerous.

If I'd had any thought of holding my nose, surrendering my rights and the rights of women and children, and voting Labour 'because I trust them on x even if I obviously don't like y', I am now deeply concerned that there isn't a moral, ethic or grain of integrity in this party and if I cannot trust them in this then I cannot trust them at all.

WickedSerious · 01/07/2024 07:36

OvaHere · 01/07/2024 05:10

It's a good job feelings are more evidential than clothes are that a man is a woman. 🙄

Show quote history

Hey!

Don't dis the feefees.

Toseland · 01/07/2024 07:11

I think they have no argument against women's objections to crossdressers - so they'll just pretend they don't exist instead.

Speedweed · 01/07/2024 07:10

So now they're distinguishing between 'feelings' and 'feelings when I'm in a dress or thinking about being in a dress'?

Aren't they the same thing?

How vile and exclusionary of them...

FailBetter · 01/07/2024 07:05

Ah now that is interesting.
Transvestite no longer under the umbrella.
Is that to try to separate kinks/AGP from transsexuality?
I think it's too little, too late now. When they set up transgender as the widened umbrella for anybody and everybody and Eddie Izzard declared himself trans, they set themselves up for self ID.

WaterThyme · 01/07/2024 07:01

I’ve never seen “gender non-conforming” in Stonewall’s glossary. I’ve checked several times over the last few years.

i presume that’s because accepting the idea would undermine their notion of gender.

Signalbox · 01/07/2024 06:51

Give it a week and the term “cross-dresser” will become the new slur only ever used by hateful TERFs. Those who might once have referred to themselves as cross-dressers have now rebranded as “trans”.

Although that would be funny if the Scottish hate speech law was already using “out of date” language. 5 minutes after being passed.