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Ketzele · 27/06/2024 11:48

It was the Tory/Libdem coalition that chose to jump on trans as the next hot thing after equal civil marriage (David Cameron was particularly keen). It was the Tories who funded Stonewall to carry out its schools work. It was the Tories who chaired the infamous women and equalities cttee. It was the Tories who allowed govt departments to drop sex from their equal opportunities policies.

We have been fighting this for nearly a decade. A decade in which the Tories have been in power. ALL the main political parties have been tragic on this issue, but I'm gobsmacked that a little late culture war posturing by a few prominent Tories is somehow letting them shrug off responsibility.

This is a carcrash of bad legislation and bad policymaking. Labour carries a great deal of responsibility for the poor laws, but the last 14 years of crap national policy is at the Tories door. Why are people so dazzled by Badenoch's admittedly impressive rhetoric that they are losing sight of this?

Shortshriftandlethal · 27/06/2024 11:47

Todaywasbetter · 27/06/2024 10:09

I loved everything that she said it sums up what I’ve been thinking in a clear concise manner so logical.

Maybe she also has a Labour candidate she likes, trusts and respects; many of us don't.

Pudmyboy · 27/06/2024 11:37

CassieMaddox · 27/06/2024 11:25

She said that she's really annoyed with the way the debate is going and politicians attempting a "both sides are as bad as each other" fudge when it's clear that the TRAs are far more violent and aggressive than GC feminists. She thinks it is obvious the majority are against gender self ID and the politicians are going to have to come round to that and she'd rather they were honest than tiptoeing. She is voting Labour because of the wider damage to the UK but doesn't trust Starmer in general because he's flip flopped, but does think that the public won't accept any self-ID

Massively paraphrasing. But what she sais sums up where I am (and a lot of other voters too). I think its helpful to see the logic and see that people voting Labour doesn't mean they "hate women" as some more ideologically driven posters would claim.

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Thank you, that's really interesting!

cavalier · 27/06/2024 11:35

HelenaWaiting · 27/06/2024 10:22

I'm mindful of the fact that there are certain individuals using this issue as leverage to shore up the Tory vote. I also want to point out that anyone who suggests that you should spoil your vote is giving terrible advice. You aren't registering a protest vote by spoiling the ballot paper, even if you think you are.

No it’s a no brainer
man dressed up as female with a penis uses woman’s toilet because he is identifying as a woman.. folllows woman and her teenage or toddler child into the toilet … Any party who supports this is messing up and it’s not the Tories

Original poster
CassieMaddox · 27/06/2024 11:32

BackToLurk · 27/06/2024 11:28

See I find this weird. She says she is really pissed off with the 'both sides' narrative, but the Labour Party has a deputy leader (not some minor MP) that called Women's Place UK a hate group. As far as I know Angela Rayner has never gone back on this. How does she reconcile those two things?

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Maybe ask her? Who knows?

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Original poster
CassieMaddox · 27/06/2024 11:32

BackToLurk · 27/06/2024 11:26

Interesting, because a lot of my Jewish friends have a real problem with her position on this. I guess they should just defer because she's 'very intelligent'

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That's not at all what I'm saying.
She's an expert on GC issues, doesn't mean people have to "defer" to her but for me means I would pay more attention to her opinion than Rory Stewart, for example.
On Israel I don't think she is an expert, but I think Rory Stewart would have more of an informed opinion given his roles in the ME and in government, so I'd give his opinion more weight.

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BackToLurk · 27/06/2024 11:28

CassieMaddox · 27/06/2024 11:25

She said that she's really annoyed with the way the debate is going and politicians attempting a "both sides are as bad as each other" fudge when it's clear that the TRAs are far more violent and aggressive than GC feminists. She thinks it is obvious the majority are against gender self ID and the politicians are going to have to come round to that and she'd rather they were honest than tiptoeing. She is voting Labour because of the wider damage to the UK but doesn't trust Starmer in general because he's flip flopped, but does think that the public won't accept any self-ID

Massively paraphrasing. But what she sais sums up where I am (and a lot of other voters too). I think its helpful to see the logic and see that people voting Labour doesn't mean they "hate women" as some more ideologically driven posters would claim.

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See I find this weird. She says she is really pissed off with the 'both sides' narrative, but the Labour Party has a deputy leader (not some minor MP) that called Women's Place UK a hate group. As far as I know Angela Rayner has never gone back on this. How does she reconcile those two things?

Original poster
CassieMaddox · 27/06/2024 11:28

Thelnebriati · 27/06/2024 11:16

They aren't as hostile to the disabled as the Tories, who by the way are the party that broke everything. I don't understand why someone would vote for more of what they know won't help, over something that might?

See there you go again, insisting that if we aren't voting for Labour we must be about to vote for Conservative or Reform!

I deliberately wrote "someone" so you wouldn't take it personally! It's a generic statement. We have a two party system so I'd assume a lot of voters would vote to get the opinions they want to see, into power.
You can vote eho you like. It's not really relevant to the point I made which was not about you.

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BackToLurk · 27/06/2024 11:26

CassieMaddox · 27/06/2024 11:19

Partly - I think accusations of antisemitism are used to shut down criticism of the Israeli Government. I think that's allowed the Israeli Government to be pretty barbaric in its response to Hamas and it's almost impossible to have a conversation about it.

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Interesting, because a lot of my Jewish friends have a real problem with her position on this. I guess they should just defer because she's 'very intelligent'

Original poster
CassieMaddox · 27/06/2024 11:25

Pudmyboy · 27/06/2024 11:19

Please can someone quote/paraphrase what she said as the link doesn't work for me and several other posters?!

She said that she's really annoyed with the way the debate is going and politicians attempting a "both sides are as bad as each other" fudge when it's clear that the TRAs are far more violent and aggressive than GC feminists. She thinks it is obvious the majority are against gender self ID and the politicians are going to have to come round to that and she'd rather they were honest than tiptoeing. She is voting Labour because of the wider damage to the UK but doesn't trust Starmer in general because he's flip flopped, but does think that the public won't accept any self-ID

Massively paraphrasing. But what she sais sums up where I am (and a lot of other voters too). I think its helpful to see the logic and see that people voting Labour doesn't mean they "hate women" as some more ideologically driven posters would claim.

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BeBraveLittlePenguin · 27/06/2024 11:22

sashagabadon · 27/06/2024 10:54

She can obviously vote anyway she wishes but it is odd to vote for a party that will make the issue she literally found so important she lost her job over worse. I don’t quite understand how an issue can be both so important it impacts your life but yet not so important it impacts your vote

Couldn't agree more. She can do if she likes, I won't.

Original poster
CassieMaddox · 27/06/2024 11:21

But I'd rather not derail onto yet another controversial topic - there is the whole ME board arguing about the rights and wrongs of IDF vs Hamas vs Israel vs Gaza vs Jewish people vs Muslims. Its way too complex to be on a "side" and reductive to make it like that.

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Pudmyboy · 27/06/2024 11:19

Please can someone quote/paraphrase what she said as the link doesn't work for me and several other posters?!

Original poster
CassieMaddox · 27/06/2024 11:19

BackToLurk · 27/06/2024 11:16

Do you agree with her that accusations of antisemitism are used to shut down debate about Israel?

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Partly - I think accusations of antisemitism are used to shut down criticism of the Israeli Government. I think that's allowed the Israeli Government to be pretty barbaric in its response to Hamas and it's almost impossible to have a conversation about it.

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BackToLurk · 27/06/2024 11:16

CassieMaddox · 27/06/2024 11:01

Well this is the thing. She clearly doesn't believe "the issue she lost her job over" is going to be made worse. She's very intelligent, very clued up on the debate and so has a better informed opinion on that than most. It goes to show that one can be presented with identical facts and draw a different conclusion about the best solution.

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Do you agree with her that accusations of antisemitism are used to shut down debate about Israel?

Thelnebriati · 27/06/2024 11:16

They aren't as hostile to the disabled as the Tories, who by the way are the party that broke everything. I don't understand why someone would vote for more of what they know won't help, over something that might?

See there you go again, insisting that if we aren't voting for Labour we must be about to vote for Conservative or Reform!

Villagetoraiseachild · 27/06/2024 11:13

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

YouJustDoYou · 27/06/2024 11:11

Thelnebriati · 27/06/2024 11:07

Labour have been grim on disability rights and benefits. IDK what they have said to give people so much faith in them. If they don't fix all the broken things, who can we hold to account?
We all have to vote according to our own beliefs and conscience, and the local candidates.

I agree. I don't understand the utter blind belief that somehow Labour is going to solve all our problems. They don't exactly have a great track record (look at how bad Wales's NHS has been under them, for example).

Original poster
CassieMaddox · 27/06/2024 11:11

Thelnebriati · 27/06/2024 11:07

Labour have been grim on disability rights and benefits. IDK what they have said to give people so much faith in them. If they don't fix all the broken things, who can we hold to account?
We all have to vote according to our own beliefs and conscience, and the local candidates.

You hold them to account at the ballot box Confused
They aren't as hostile to the disabled as the Tories, who by the way are the party that broke everything. I don't understand why someone would vote for more of what they know won't help, over something that might?

Our two party system doesn't help - I guess if disability rights were my top priority I'd vote Lib Dem with the hope of an LD opposition to keep labour honest on that.

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YouJustDoYou · 27/06/2024 11:10

Alltheprettyseahorses · 27/06/2024 10:39

I think this is a fair point. I also remember Rachel Reeves during the massive fuel crisis trumpeting about how Labour would give everyone the grand total of around £90 each to help with the cost while the Tories (the Tories!) gave the disabled people I care for £thousands, keeping them warm and possibly and thankfully in some cases still alive. There's a big difference between the comforting stories we tell ourselves to justify our own prejudices and the reality of what goes on.

I'd better qualify this by mentioning I'm not voting Tory either before some get overexcited and start frothing about Tory HQ as if there isn't more Labour HQ around. I'd prefer new political parties worthy of the name.

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Indeed.

Thelnebriati · 27/06/2024 11:07

Labour have been grim on disability rights and benefits. IDK what they have said to give people so much faith in them. If they don't fix all the broken things, who can we hold to account?
We all have to vote according to our own beliefs and conscience, and the local candidates.

AmaryllisNightAndDay · 27/06/2024 11:04

It's her decision but it's wishful thinking. Starmer probably doesn't really care that much either way and he'd probably like to edge back over a golden bridge towards common sense but he isn't going to get the chance. The Labour party can't "jump", they aren't going to play nicely on this, the leadership have made contradictory half-promises to both sides and they wont be able to keep the ones they made to women. Rosie Duffield is the canary in the coalmine

On the day we get red circles drawn in green ink the Labour party will bring us women-only spaces and self-id.

Original poster
CassieMaddox · 27/06/2024 11:04

AlisonDonut · 27/06/2024 10:59

What people don't seem to realise is that they won't be voting Labour as the Labour Party doesn't exist any more.

They will be voting Stonewall and all the other Activists in.

Well, I think that accusation is better levelled at the Conservatives who were systematically dismantled by Boris in 2019 with the result they are now completely unelectable.

Starmer has been really tough on extreme views in his party, LO'J flounced, so I just don't believe the party is being run by "Stonewall and activists". That's scaremongering.

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Original poster
CassieMaddox · 27/06/2024 11:01

sashagabadon · 27/06/2024 10:54

She can obviously vote anyway she wishes but it is odd to vote for a party that will make the issue she literally found so important she lost her job over worse. I don’t quite understand how an issue can be both so important it impacts your life but yet not so important it impacts your vote

Well this is the thing. She clearly doesn't believe "the issue she lost her job over" is going to be made worse. She's very intelligent, very clued up on the debate and so has a better informed opinion on that than most. It goes to show that one can be presented with identical facts and draw a different conclusion about the best solution.

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AlisonDonut · 27/06/2024 10:59

What people don't seem to realise is that they won't be voting Labour as the Labour Party doesn't exist any more.

They will be voting Stonewall and all the other Activists in.

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