Non binary children

Exactly. The message they must be passing to their children is that boys must be masculine, like ‘boy’s things’, have short hair and wear ‘boy clothes’, likewise for girls but girls stuff/feminine. Thus when a girl is a tomboy or a boy is feminine or likes ‘girls things’, either the child themselves deduces they must not be a real boy/girl, or their parents rush in excitedly and ‘explain’ and put the NB label on them.

The NB label is good, you see. You can dress up in rainbows, do stupid poses with your hand under your chin - and totally control adults and children in your vicinity, who now have to tiptoe around you in case you allege ‘transphobia’. See the attention, feel the power!

That's only true of older adults. Young children can easily tell the sex of their peers, whatever they are wearing. This ability gradually reduces, but teens and young adults are still pretty good at it. There's some research on this, with experiments using cross-dressed babies among other things, but I can't find it ATM. Maybe someone else knows.

This is my childhood in one post

And yes, the non-binary thing is just a lot of shite and only works if in the first place you accept that only girls have long hair, only boys wear blue, only girls play with dolls, etc.

My younger brother wore our hand-me-down blouses with giant collars! I got mistaken for a boy all the time, even though my hair was long. Maybe BECAUSE my hair was long, ha! I wore navy cords, anoraks, plain T-shirts, shorts etc (once my aunt finally stopped sending the hideous handmade crimpolene dresses, previously worn by my cousin!)

My sister and I played with Lego that was not fecking pink. We built dens and sent action man abseiling over the bannister. Our brother had a pram in which he wheeled his collection of teddies and dolls. We all played with all the toys. Dolls' houses, Sindy's, tea sets, cars, mecanno, Lego, car dashboard, Evel Knievel. Nowadays at least one of us would probably wonder if they were non binary, simply because that concept was placed in our heads. By adults.

I think it's the same as calling anyone who's not called themselves trans/ queer/ non binary etc "cis" as fedup says.

Aside its route to surgery and hormones.

There are many girls and boys not conforming to stereotypes who aren't also calling themselves non binary.

As such doesn't really 'mean' anything concrete either. But gives a 'special status' in popular culture.

Calling one particular child a "non-binary boy/girl" does rather imply that the person using such labels thinks that other boys/girls are "binary" and that their child is somehow importantly different to those "binary" boys and girls.

Well yes, it does imply that, doesn't it? So they'd rather project it onto the child. Not "I will sound like a bit of a tit" but "my child will be so-o-o upset if we say what sex they are".

Oh, I don't see much positive value in it either.

But at least as soon as you say "non-binary boy (girl/etc)" you puncture the mysterious aura you get from refusing to state your / your child's sex at all.

Calling one particular child a "non-binary boy/girl" does rather imply that the person using such labels thinks that other boys/girls are "binary" and that their child is somehow importantly different to those "binary" boys and girls. Rather than just seeing all children as individuals with their own personalities, some of which will include children who don't conform to cultural sex-based stereotypes in various different ways.

For me though that reasoning is still a nod to gender stereotyping and image; why can't women wear a men's t shirt?

And it is still an issue to use the label as the child grows up .

The reasons women wear clothes designed for men are very different to the reasons men would wear clothes designed for women.

It's less of an issue pre puberty as children's bodies have the same shape between the sexes. The differences are entirely based on styles designed for girls and boys, bar underpants. (Older boys jeans and trousers may be slightly deeper in the seat.)

I don't mind people calling themselves or even their children "non-binary" as long as they say what sex they are as well. It should be fine to call oneself a "non-binary boy" or "non-binary girl". "Non-binary" could be a nice shorthand for "noticeably gender non-conforming". If you call your child a "non-binary boy" or "non-binary girl" then at worst that deserves an eye-roll and sometimes it might even hint at useful social information.

If a child is "non-binary" then I still need to know "yes but are you a non-binary girl or non-binary boy". And no that's not like the old joke "but are you a Catholic Jew or a Protestant Jew" because everyone who is non-binary is still either one sex or the other, and it still makes a difference.

If you just say a child is "non-binary" you're suggesting that they don't have a sex that is male or female, or that they shouldn't have a sex that is male or female, or that no-one else has the right to know if they are male or female, or that it never matters if they are male or female. None of which are true.

It seems to me to be pathologising a perfectly normal aversion to sex stereotypes.
Yes to this; also obviously driven by how lucrative the medical interventions are

Should read - I believe for females there's a concerning quest to remain childlike.

As they don't want to grow up. Some of this is reactionary against how they see women being treated.

I would imagine some male children seek pbs for similar reasons.

I know a male child in y6 who has LD and autism who is completely terrified of the concept of growing up. Nothing to do with NB or trans, it's the idea of 'things being different' which is a huge source of anxiety for some autistic children and adults, in any context.

Non binary is again all about gender stereotyping and consumer driven social trends.

One only has to see the images of David tenants kids on instagram all dressed to the nines in sequins and rainbows, all with long hair. One of whom I'm told is Nb (faces are all obscured, no idea which one it is.) it's 'dressy ups.'

It's a "look" that has evolved into a belief that they're not a boy or girl based on consumer choices.

I wouldn't be surprised if it's also linked to children playing online games and changing their "skins" - how the character looks.

It's just as problematic and dangerous as trans identities as it obviously leads to males believing they have a right to female spaces and females to micro dose hormones with irreversible consequences and seek mastectomies.

I believe for women there's a concerning quest to remain childlike. Others deliberately take testosterone to deepen their voices - a tiktok trend, changing nothing else about their styles, gender non conforming or not.

Dressy ups has been given concerning adult concepts via queer theory.

One guess why all this benefits adults.

It seems to me to be pathologising a perfectly normal aversion to sex stereotypes.

Yes, definitely. There are no doubt also plenty of kids for whom it's not really pathologising, but just a completely pointless label that enables you to fit in with the quirky cloud. Ridiculous, considering that there aren't many people who tick absolutely all sex stereotype boxes. If anyone is 'non-binary', then virtually everyone is. Obviously that's no fun though, as it makes it less unique and special.

Yes, there is that too.

You see it with family sports or professions where it is expected that the child will carry on with the tradition. I suppose religion is the same.

But also once a child has started on a road to becoming a top sports person, or a doctor, or a musician, or even transing and the parents have bought into it, it is extremely difficult for the child to say ‘I don’t want this anymore’.

Totally agree we are far more gendered today - which essentially means we are much more conservative in presentation.

Until fashion eventually swings away from that (although it's been increasing in that direction I think from the naughties and is showing no signs of relenting), then we'll get this kind of uptick of mild dysphoria if you like in those girls who don't embrace the pink, LOL girls, brow bar stuff.

Mild enough to identify into NB, not enough to try to be the opposite sex.

When I was a child, I insisted on only wearing jeans/trousers and what might have been deemed “boys’ clothes.” My best friend was the same - we played football with the boys, climbed trees etc, and went through a phase of insisting on being called boys’ names. We got to 11ish, and sort of grew out of it. Still lived in jeans, not overly feminine, but definitely knew we were girls. Was talking to my friend about it the other week and how these days we’d have been offered puberty blockers and counselling. We’re both straight, married and have kids. As my Mum said, it was just a phase - what was I supposed to do, insist you wore a dress and did embroidery?

I was, as I said, talking about the children I have met, not what I reckon about children I haven’t met.

I had a Facebook memory the other day of when my, then, 2 year old daughter realised that big brothers were different.

Do these parents not give any credit to their children?

People's affinity to stereotypes is very much not just their business. Other people make it their business. The gendered presentation of girls and boys is subject to huge scrutiny by their peers.

I think it boils down to this: should the words girl, boy, woman, man be used to refer to a human being of a particular sex, OR to a human being who has a set of likes, dislikes, behaviours and mannerisms that correspond more or less exactly to modern, western stereotypes associated with that sex?

Because I think it's important to be clear about sex, and because I think people's affinity with stereotypes changes throughout life - even day to day - and isn't really anyone's business but theirs, I think these words should refer to sex. The use of non-binary presumes that they refer to affinity with stereotypes.

I agree. I find it outrageous and sad - The immense pressure on the child (which will only grow bigger) and the self-righteous narcissism of the parents. And it's all played out on social media for the likey likes. Morons

I am also a child of the 70s, and the way young children are presented (for want of a better word) now is far more gendered than in my childhood. And in fact more than my own young adult DC's childhood. It is hard to step outside those expectations as a child. I'm not surprised that children who feel differently want a way they can identify with others, and aren't just happy "being themselves" as I think PPs have put it. It's pretty normal to want to be part of a group, but if being part of the group "girl" or "boy" comes with such strong behaviours, it's easy to feel excluded. And while we may define those groups by sex (and IME of children who would call themselves NB, they are not themselves confusing sex and gender), the behaviours of those groups in schools for example, and families go far beyond that.

And yet here you are calling her ‘she’ 😂