Islington North - who to vote for?

I genuinely think you and others are being far too pessimistic. They would need to consult on any new proposed legislation, the same thing would happen as happened to the tories, it just wouldn't happen. Bringing self-ID in through the back door is just not going to be a priority for Starmer's new Gvmt, I really can't see it happening.

I’m usually a Labour voter. Taking your points in the context of Labour’s stated policies and statements:

-GRC on day one with one “specialised” doctor’s sign off is self ID via the back door. Have you heard of the Webberleys?

-lawyerly insistence on “safe spaces” not “single sex spaces” indicates very strongly that these spaces will be open not by reference to sex, ie to TW and only relevant anyway where violence not dignity and privacy is concerned.
— of course - they want any vote they can get. But answering “trans bla blah bla” when anyone raises women’s rights is another strong indicator where their priorities lie (women, shut up, there’s an election on).

And asking to talk to women’s groups immediately before an election and after years of feigned deafness but so close that these conversations will actually take place after the election (if at all) is hardly convincing to the battle weary cynics amongst us.

The thing it, when someone goes wanging on about TW being W and then reverse ferrets or swings back and forth or sits on the fence, it makes you wonder what other nonsensical beliefs they secretly hold.

It makes you question absolutely everything.

I continue to be perplexed at how the GC movement seems to be so passionately anti-Labour given they:

1. Dropped plans to bring in Self-ID and have confirmed this position in their 2024 manifesto.
2. Have reiterated their intent to protect single-sex exemptions.
3. Have been making consistent overtures during the election campaign to reassure on the above points and that they are listening to women now.

Yes, it is true that their position is weaker than the conservatives but I fully believe that is partly due to them not having been the party in Government, and therefore they haven't been subjected to the persistent campaigning that women have been doing on this issue the past few years. They haven't been forced to reckon with the issue in policy making across Government in the same way the tories have. The Conservatives did not benignly choose to take our side on this issue. They were bloody well forced into it by the hard work of women over the last 6 plus years.

If you are generally pro-Labour apart from the gender issue, then it is really baffling to me why you would refuse to see the gains we've made within the Labour Party, and have a bit more faith in our ability to continue to keep the pressure up. The Labour Party are not pro self-ID like the Greens and Lib dems, their position has shifted. I get that people were angry at the bat-shit quotes that Labour MPs were coming out with in the past couple of years when asked 'what is a woman', and in well-meaning attempts to not be perceived as anti-trans, but surely we can look past those embarrassing gaffes and grip the current reality? the number of actual TRA MPs in Labour right now is extremely low.

I'm very left wing also, but have always recognised that being electable is more important in the long run. Now though, my vote doesn't appear to matter so I may as well stick to my left wing principles.

(and yes, of course I wish Labour were GC, but my overriding desire is to get the Tories out of power).

Thanks @CorbynSchmorbyn . As it happens I do have a PoW candidate standing in my “seat”. The gender critical stuff I take for granted but I don’t know anything else about her - a website with info about candidates’ basic histories would be helpful (eg I’m in my forties, work in the NHS, usually vote Lib Dem until this, believe in a, b and c ) type info. I can’t be the only one searching and not finding it…

Exactly. The hardcore Corbynistas I know are all highly educated, in well-paying work, have lots of cultural and social capital and are, compared to many people, pretty privileged. I don't have a problem per se with people being left-wing and financially comfortable (I hold my hands up, I'm not on the breadline), but people who can afford to vote for Corbyn, or for someone else to 'teach Labour a lesson' and still get by under the Tories, albeit with a bit of belt-tightening, are in the minority, and I think Corbyn-lovers and Starmer-haters can forget that.

You need to occupy the central ground to get elected (which means fending off the momentum minded on the far left of Labour and the Reform minded on the far right of the Tory party). It’s not rocket science and it’s not student politics. Starmer clearly gets this. What a pity he is ready to throw women to the wolves to buy off his left wing.

Couldn't agree more. Someone asked me, when it looked like Diane Abbott would be running as an indie, who I was voting for. Well, more accurately, they suggested that I vote for her and 'teach Labour a lesson'. There's no way she'd win as an indie, and the Tories always come second here, so there's no way on earth I'd do that and risk a chinless wonder getting in. I've no desire to teach Labour a lessonhmm].
This person is a dyed-in-the-wool Jeremy-was-wronged type, who refers to him by his first name as if they're best mates, thinks Tony Blair is a 'liar' and right-wing and still isn't over Iraq.
I've no time for that. I don't mind Starmer because he's a pragmatist and a centrist, and that's how you keep the Tories out.

Hi @maltravers , you asked about Party of Women - as far as I can tell it is all being done on a shoestring (and possibly the back of a fag packet). I could upload a copy of Lesley's flyer but all it basically says is the basic position of saying No woman has a penis, No man has a vagina, Non binary is nonsense and transing kids is abuse - calls for repeal of the GRA and getting the ideology of out schools, preserving women's sex based rights..

My impression is that many extreme left-wingers really would rather not be in power at all than be in power but have to compromise on their principles. That's why they hate Tony Blair so much - he knew that Labour could only win if they could somehow persuade the floating voters and the centre-left people to vote Labour rather than Tory. He won three elections on the trot and actually managed to make some changes on the back of it.

Corbyn made Labour unelectable. When you think how much damage the Tories had done with austerity and Brexit, the last election should have been a shoo in for Labour. His supporters can bleat on as much as they like about the huge number of votes he got. He didn't get them in the constituencies where it counted and consequently Labour lost. This is what matters, not the popular vote. A more intelligent and tactically minded leader would have seen that.

The Tories want power at any cost so have no issues whatsoever doing what it takes to get elected.

Yes I do. The current bunch on Conservatives are a lying, law breaking bunch who appear mainly concerned with lining their own pockets. No other government in my lifetime have been so blatantly corrupt. Its really sad we now think they are all the same and that's what we deserve.
I'm not thinking Labour will improve things overnight but at least they aren't lying law breakers. That's good enough for me right now.

This made me smile - an effect which has been sadly missing from this campaign. (from getvoting.org)

How has he gone too far in your opinion? (apart from the sex/gender debate, on which you'd (I'd) vote for neither candidate)?

serious question - what is wrong with being really left wing? And if you don't believe that he is anti-semitic why not vote for him? He's a real socialist right? Which is more than Starmer is?

I hear you, but do you really think Labour will improve anything because I have 0 hope they will, if anything I think they're so incompetent it'll get worse.

With the Tories they're quite happy for the poor and middle classes to get poorer and everything start to fall apart until the point it impacts on their cash flow, at which point they'll step in to stop the rot.

With Labour I think they're so wedded to ludicrous ideology (on many issues) that they'll be happy for there to be immense damage for the "cause". I also think they're allergic to reality so will find the practical realities of trying to improve things very hard to do.

My probably vain hope is for more votes for independents and more independent MPs.

And looking to emigrate in a few years.

When we had the vote for Police Commissioner in Manchester so many people ruined their ballots papers it was on the local news. After that it was no longer up for a vote.

In all seriousness I wish I could choose to vote on principles but this election is way too important for that as I really think another 5 years of the Tories will destroy the country.

in a close election all spoilt ballots are scrutinised by agents for the candidates.

it’s often one of the most fun aspects of count night!

Yeah I think people are a bit narcissistic about spoilt ballots! I think people are too busy counting to give it more than a cursory glance....