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Original poster

Trans people; why is it our responsibility?

307 replies

XChrome · 24/06/2024 02:16

Okay, so trans identifying folks say that they need access to women's spaces because they aren't safe in men's spaces. I get that, but it is a problem caused by men. Therefore the solution should be about men, not women. So why isn't the main focus on targeting these men, campaigning for harsher penalties for such hate crimes? Why instead are they expecting women to compensate them for male behavior, making ourselves feel less safe in the process?

I would love for a trans identifying person to answer that question.
Has anyone here ever asked a trans person this question and received an honest answer?

I'm not hardcore "terf" as I respect everyone's right to decide who and what they are. My problem with it is when it conflicts with other people's rights to safety and security. I would really like to them to tell us why the violent men who cause this problem are being let off the hook and women are the ones targeted with all this anti-terf hate.

OP posts:
gardenmusic · 24/06/2024 19:11

PrincessCordelia · Today 19:03
gardenmusic · Today 19:01
Since when is a phobia of any sort unacceptable or anyone else's business?
Now come into my space as a man, and that is my business.
Depending on where you live I would imagine that they are supported by the law and that you might be the one acting in an unlawful way if you discriminated against them.

I would not discriminate against any woman.
I would not discriminate against any man dressed as a woman and going about his business.
I would happily sell him a frock and some slap, serve him in a pub, offer him a job, if he were the right candidate, have a drink with him - but I absolutely will complain if he tries to infiltrate women only spaces, because he is a man.
The law is an ass.

PrincessCordelia · 24/06/2024 19:11

MalagaNights · 24/06/2024 19:07

It's still legal to be able to tell men they're men.
Why do you think that's illegal?

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You can tell a man they are a man - might be weird but that’s not illegal. If you told trans women they were a man then that would be illegal in the UK under equality discrimination as it would be considered a hate crime to insult someone like that just like a racist or sexist comment as it would be a transphobic comment

Toseland · 24/06/2024 19:10

...most large spaces and companies are moving towards gender neutral toilets in addition or as a replacement to avoid all this.
Making people less safe as you can't see if someone has collapsed inside; which was the reason there were gaps at the top and bottom in the first place!

...please remember that if any person of any gender identity is a sex offender/violent criminal wanting to hurt victims they are very unlikely to care which toilet it they go to in order to commit horrible crimes.
Nonsense - most sex offenders and violent criminals are men, most victims are women - when you've solved that perhaps then there could be a discussion about changes to the toilet arrangements. Besides, ladies loos are needed as an escape from men altogether.

Original poster
XChrome · 24/06/2024 19:09

Lopine · 24/06/2024 07:45

Yes, we are hardcore terfs for suggesting that men should take responsibility for their very poor behaviour towards a section of the community.

It's not our responsibility to protect them by sacrificing ourselves. Female self sacrifice is just being taken as an given. To me, that particular sense of entitlement is male, so if you expect us to make that sacrifice while letting men off the hook, you're probably not a woman.

OP posts:
PrincessCordelia · 24/06/2024 19:08

WickedSerious · 24/06/2024 19:06

Their rights to what?

Edited
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Trans women’s rights to exist in spaces minding their own business, not committing crimes and using a restroom.
these rights seem not to be universally held in this chat - maybe it’s a culture thing I’m from the UK and we would consider that discrimination and illegal here

MalagaNights · 24/06/2024 19:07

PrincessCordelia · 24/06/2024 19:06

Yes that is illegal in the UK. I can’t speak for everywhere but that seems completely unreasonable to me as a Brit!

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It's still legal to be able to tell men they're men.
Why do you think that's illegal?

HootyMcBooby · 24/06/2024 19:07

PrincessCordelia · 24/06/2024 19:06

Yes that is illegal in the UK. I can’t speak for everywhere but that seems completely unreasonable to me as a Brit!

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No it's not.

HootyMcBooby · 24/06/2024 19:06

Wanting to retain women's rights to dignity, privacy and safety is not "transphobia".
Biological reality is not "transphobia".

WickedSerious · 24/06/2024 19:06

PrincessCordelia · 24/06/2024 19:05

You want to take away trans women’s rights?

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Their rights to what?

PrincessCordelia · 24/06/2024 19:06

WickedSerious · 24/06/2024 19:05

Like reminding them that they're men?

That sort of discrimination?

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Yes that is illegal in the UK. I can’t speak for everywhere but that seems completely unreasonable to me as a Brit!

flotsomandjetsome · 24/06/2024 19:05

I feel, like others it seems, that I have no problem with men being transwomen (TIM) but that as they are still biologically men, they are a subset of men not women.

So... rather than telling women to 'be kind' and let TIM in our spaces and sports, men should be told to 'be kind' to TIM and be polite to them in men's spaces, and as for sports - doesn't matter what you look like or what kit you wear TIM can carry on competing in the male / open category.

Original poster
XChrome · 24/06/2024 19:05

SnakesAndArrows · 24/06/2024 07:40

Erm… you are a hardcore terf. So am I apparently. What a time to be alive.

As the old Chinese curse goes, we are living in interesting times.

OP posts:
PrincessCordelia · 24/06/2024 19:05

Meceme · 24/06/2024 18:51

My rights to choose single sex spaces are mine to choose to use or not .... they are not yours to take.
And, other womens rights are not mine or yours to give away.

You want to take away trans women’s rights?

WickedSerious · 24/06/2024 19:05

PrincessCordelia · 24/06/2024 19:03

Depending on where you live I would imagine that they are supported by the law and that you might be the one acting in an unlawful way if you discriminated against them.

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Like reminding them that they're men?

That sort of discrimination?

Original poster
XChrome · 24/06/2024 19:03

TimGrantsNoAccessToWomen · 24/06/2024 07:38

Well, quite, OP.

I'm not hardcore "terf" as I respect everyone's right to decide who and what they are. My problem with it is when it conflicts with other people's rights to safety and security

That's exactly the 'hardcore terf' position, I'm afraid.

That's insane, if they think that's hardcore.

OP posts:
PrincessCordelia · 24/06/2024 19:03

gardenmusic · 24/06/2024 19:01

Since when is a phobia of any sort unacceptable or anyone else's business?
Now come into my space as a man, and that is my business.

Depending on where you live I would imagine that they are supported by the law and that you might be the one acting in an unlawful way if you discriminated against them.

WickedSerious · 24/06/2024 19:03

Not with Mr Sparkle Socks in charge.

PrincessCordelia · 24/06/2024 19:01

XChrome · 24/06/2024 18:54

That's true of some of them, but surely are a minority are violent.
I wonder if having being raised male, they have a feeling of entitlement that women should do things for them and a belief (whether they are conscious of it or not) that those born female are beneath them.
The beliefs one develops in the formative years tend to stay.

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Is there an issue with sexism against women in Canada? I really thought Canada was a safe nice respectful place!

gardenmusic · 24/06/2024 19:01

Since when is a phobia of any sort unacceptable or anyone else's business?
Now come into my space as a man, and that is my business.

Original poster
XChrome · 24/06/2024 19:01

Runor · 24/06/2024 06:11

I have asked exactly this question. The answer always seems to be ‘because transwomen are women’. Any suggestion that that might not be acceptable to women results in fury rather than any kind of recognition that there might actually be an issue, never mind any attempt to find a compromise (eg 3rd spaces).

This is exactly why the ‘both sides are toxic’ comments are so hurtful and lacking in any kind of understanding of the issue. I suggest, OP, that your very reasonable position does indeed make you a ‘hardcore Terf’

I really hope you get some considered answers from posters who believe that it is women’s job to provide them with a ‘safe space’ (thanks for that terminology Kier). Sadly, I doubt you will.

I'm fine with them believing they are women. Does it mean I trust them, since they were raised male, with all the entitlement that goes with it? Nope. If that makes me hardcore terf, then fuck it, I am.

OP posts:
PrincessCordelia · 24/06/2024 18:59

XChrome · 24/06/2024 18:57

Sorry, I don't get all the Brit specific references. I'm Canadian.

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Is discrimination against the trans community illegal in Canada? It seems like a progressive place that wouldn’t tolerate discrimination

Original poster
XChrome · 24/06/2024 18:57

Crankywiddershins · 24/06/2024 05:48

Is that you, Sir Kier? Stella Creasy is going to give you a big wedgie when she finds out you're talking to us!
Can you do us a favour and explain to David Lammy that you can't get a cervix on prescription from boots?

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Sorry, I don't get all the Brit specific references. I'm Canadian.

OP posts:
PrincessCordelia · 24/06/2024 18:57

gardenmusic · 24/06/2024 18:42

'some women here seem afraid of Trans women'
I am not afraid, I am pissed off at their entitlement. They should not be in women's spaces.
I fully understand that women can be afraid of finding a man in their changing room or toilet. I don't care if said man is as weak as a kitten, he has no right to make women feel uncomfortable.

I‘m afraid times they are a changing and we are moving further away from transphobia being acceptable more and more every day. It’s literally UK law not to discriminate against trans people already.

Original poster
XChrome · 24/06/2024 18:56

kkloo · 24/06/2024 04:23

It's absolutely outrageous that the solution to making Trans people feel safe is to make women feel unsafe.

Agree. In no world is that a fair or effective solution to the problem of male violence.

OP posts:
Original poster
XChrome · 24/06/2024 18:54

WallaceinAnderland · 24/06/2024 04:10

Because it's the violent men campaigning (as faux trans allies) to gain access to vulnerable women and children. They're on the same side. They are easy to spot, they are often found wearing face masks and shouting at women.

That's true of some of them, but surely are a minority are violent.
I wonder if having being raised male, they have a feeling of entitlement that women should do things for them and a belief (whether they are conscious of it or not) that those born female are beneath them.
The beliefs one develops in the formative years tend to stay.

OP posts: