Trans people; why is it our responsibility?

Surely if you were serious you'd want both things to happen?

You know that male spaces will never be safe enough. That's why we as women resist shared sex spaces.

OP - because feeling unsafe in the men’s loos is just a red herring. (How often do you hear about transphobic attacks in the men’s loos?)

It’s because maintaining the pretence that these men are women is the main driver of this. The goal isn’t to “pee in peace”. It’s to pretend that the trans woman is a “real woman”.

And for at least some men, there’s a self-acknowledged sexual thrill from listening to women pee/being in the women’s loos/pushing women’s and girls’ privacy boundaries.

It’s up to you, of course, to decide whether you think there is any overlap between the men who get aroused listening to women peeing (or being around little girls in the loos), and the men who identify as women. Maybe there is, maybe there isn’t. I wouldn’t like to say.

I didn’t ask what percentage have a penis. I asked if people would be ok with a post op male to female transsexual using female facilities. Genuinely interested in the answer to that.

Actually statistically it’s extremely rare that men who claim to be transgender have their penis removed- over 98% I understand retain their penis.

in any event, it’s largely irrelevant- they remain men - people cannot change sex.

If you’re in a swing seat your vote will make a difference. Use it to put pressure on Labour to legally protect biological women’s rights.

www.thetimes.com/article/06e1ee5e-1a7e-4f7a-a094-9fbf634d09c8?shareToken=92e7935b8c1c2a423b819c1453bdb3ba

Most male trans people do indeed keep their fully working penis. It's approx 85-90% if I remember correctly. That also doesn't matter as a, we can't tell if they still have it and b, they are still male even without one.

Around 90% of trans women retain their penis.

Yeah absolutely asked this question and discussed it 1000s times. Answer always the same- TWAW. Most TW accept they aren’t bio women - surely on that basis there should be a third space across settings separated by bio sex (prisons, changing rooms, rape and DV shelters) and put them all in there.

Male to female transsexuals quite often don’t have a penis. Interested in your views on people who have had surgery using women’s changing rooms? Would you mind?

I personally think men can pretend to be women if they want but they don’t get to force me to go along with it. Certain spaces should be sexist segregated for reasons of privacy and dignity and the other sex should not be allowed in no matter how they “identify”.

I don't call myself a TERF either, my username is where I sit. Transwoman excluding, transman including rad fem. My feminism is for all women, even the ones who don't want to be women and it isn't for any men.

I also find asking “if genitals don't define gender, how does removing them affirm it?” really stumps them.

OP I no longer view TERF as a slur.

The 'TE' stands for 'trans exclusionary'. Well yes, transwomen should be excluded from biological female single sex spaces for a whole host of reasons outlined in this thread. Safety, dignity, privacy, religious and cultural reasons, trauma reasons, fairness reasons in sport. I stand by that.

Transmen (biologically female) are not being excluded from these spaces. Only sports if their artificial testosterone level disqualifies them, their qualification times/ability is hopelessly adrift of the minimum requirement in the biological male or 'open' category, their instinct for self preservation prevents them from taking part in sports in the biological male category - particularly contact sports (I have no idea if the rules prevent this but you don't hear transmen screeching about it, probably because they're intelligent enough to know they'd get hurt).

Moving on, the 'RF' stands for 'radical feminist'. I don't think it's a radical position to take when the silent majority of the country agrees. I don't even know if it's particularly feminist, it just seems like common sense to me. Women and girls are physically weaker and at much greater risk of male violence. Most men and women understand that. People are afraid to speak out because it's been bizarrely framed as a bigoted view (TRAs are very fond of equating it to racial segregation and homophobia).

Hampstead swimming ponds.

There are 3 swimming ponds on Hampstead heath. They've been there about a 100 years. One for men, one for women, and one mixed.

Anyone can use the mixed pond. So men who are happy to swim with women, and women who are happy to swim with men, have a choice of 2 ponds. Women who need (for example for reasons of religion or trauma) or prefer single sex swimming have 1 pond. As do men who want a single sex space.

Or that was the case, up to - I think - 2017. At which point men demanded access to the women's pond, and were granted it. Women asked for reciprocal access to the men's pond - and were denied.

So now most men have 2 ponds, men who need a single sex space have 1 pond, men who say they identify as women have 3 ponds.

No women have more than 2 ponds, and women who need a single sex space have no ponds at all.

Exactly.
And the offending rate and nature of offences committed by transwomen remain the same as the male population.

Because they are male.

In fact, I think the rate of sexual offences might be slighter OVER represented in the trans population, but I would have to dig out that statistic. I've definitely read that recently.

Okay, so trans identifying folks say that they need access to women's spaces because they aren't safe in men's spaces

Because this isn’t really the reason, there is no endemic of trans people being beaten up in mens toilets, they just say it as an excuse, I mean seriously, when did you even read about such a thing happening in the news? Yet I have read several stories of trans attacking women and girls in toilets.

The real reason is they just want access to womens spaces.

To go back to the OP , why do the TW feel ‘unsafe’ in male spaces, or at least spaces where intimate functions are being performed by men ( loos, changing rooms, hospital wards, etc). The unease or threat doesn’t seem to extend to male only clubs or societies.

I’ve looked around quite a lot and I can find hardly any examples of TW being attacked or harassed by men under these circumstances ( found ‘several’ cases of women and girls being harassed/ attacked by TW in these places though). The main examples I have found seem to relate to mistaken identity in a sexual situation,where the male client was disappointed or disconcerted , or where two TW had an argument which escalated into physical violence.

I don’t believe that examples of male agression towards TW would be under publicised, tbh. So that leaves non trans identifying men to be interrogated. Those whom I have asked seem to feel that they would be embarrassed and uneasy at the presence of a TW , and would just ‘zip up and get out’ .

I admit that I don’t have any hooligans or brawlers amongst my male acquaintances, though.

So if a man feels unsafe in a man's space, he gets to make women feel unsafe in the women's space?! I support anyone who wants to call themselves a new name and wear opposite gender clothing. But I draw the line at them saying they're now the opposite gender, when they are not. Also I have issues with them invading female safe spaces.

The ultimate manspreading.

I think I am perhaps a hyper terf now. No to men using women's names. No to men wearing skirts (seeing as I have been forced to wear these for being a woman). Any man dressing up as a little girl, wearing dummies or pigtails, calling himself a young girl's name to be investigated for pedophilia.

Ok, so lets accept for a minute that TWAW (which I don't believe) the problem is STILL men as its apparently unsafe for them in mens spaces so why is it womens responsibility to fix it?

Quite simply, the fact transwomen (and it is transwomen, there's a serious lack of demand from transmen or discussion from TRAs about transmen) have been able to change so many things at such high levels is proof in itself that transwomen are not biological women.

If transwomen were women then what they want and how they feel would be considered unimportant and irrelevant and they would never have got such control over policies and practices in so many institutions. They'd be accused of being hysterical or irrational or over emotional and what they wanted would never have been given and sure as shit not so easily at at the direct expense of others.

TimGrantsNoAccessToWomen

I will google it.

Wait til you hear about the Brighton rape survivors groups ...