Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Using preferred pronouns in primary school

88 replies

itispersonal · 22/06/2024 22:42

We have just been told a child in our school who has been dressing 'of the opposite gender' is now wanted to change their name and use different pronouns.

Where do teaching staff stand on this... I'm tolerable to using their preferred name but not pronouns and won't be going along that they are of the opposite sex.

New draft consultation from the government looks to side with those who are GC (but it is non statutory) and said no one "should be compelled to use these preferred pronouns"

Agreeing to a child's request to have others use different pronouns about them is a significant decision. Primary school aged children should not have different pronouns to their sex-based pronouns used about them.
For older children, schools do not need to specify pronouns to be used about each pupil and can decline a request to change a child's pronouns. Where a school or college considers a child's request, they should consult the child's parents and consider all the relevant factors as outlined above. Having considered these factors and examined all the evidence, schools and colleges should only agree to a change of pronouns if they are confident that the benefit to the individual child outweighs the impact on the school community. It is expected that there will be very few occasions in which a school or college will be able to agree to a change of pronouns. On these rare occasions, no teacher or pupil should be compelled to use these preferred pronouns and it should not prevent teachers from referring to children collectively as 'girls' or 'boys, even in the presence of a child that has been allowed to change their pronouns. Even in the exceptional case where safeguarding requires a school or college to take an alternative approach, schools and colleges should exhaust all other options, such as using first names, to avoid requiring other individuals having to use preferred pronouns. In these exceptional cases, schools or colleges should make sure that all relevant staff are aware of a gender questioning child's biological sex, to fulfil their safeguarding and legal duties.

Could work take action for not using the preferred pronouns? If when interacting with the child they are still treated with respect. The county council has form for taking staff to court but can't find an update on the appeal.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
WarriorN · 23/06/2024 13:16

Effective safeguarding is about ongoing reflective practice. It's not the Dbs's and certification. That's just to say you've not got a criminal record and have attended training. It's putting the training into practice.

If someone raises a safeguarding issue through the proper processes, those concerns should be heard and treated accordingly. If they're not, then safeguarding at the school is ineffective. The culture is one of silencing and as evidenced through many previous case reviews, which should have been covered on certified safeguarding training in the school and LA, this is not keeping children safe.

Whistleblowing is a really important part of safeguarding.

I appreciate it's not easy at all - I would have struggled a year ago, but Cass and kcsie and even the draft guidelines, and TT, are tools to be used here with slt.

I'd get it all on record too. If following the correct procedures, you can't be sent to court. The worst is that it's ignored. But I do suspect, even if Labour get in, the medical evidence is going to keep growing

Cass has said that social transition is more likely to lead to medical transition. Children can't consent to that.

The child may grow up to be gay. Ergo it's potentially gay conversion.

WarriorN · 23/06/2024 12:29

Exactly as MrsO says; work with the system as it is as a professional, so they have no issues.

Ask formally for clarifications within the structure and context of safeguarding. Use direct quotes from Cass and kcsie. Emphasis you are raising a relatively new safeguarding issue that has just been added to kcsie.

Emphasise issues with other children who perhaps have additional needs and may not be able to use preferred names and pronouns. They must not be punished.

Written letters may be the most appropriate method, copy governors in too.

Actuallylocaltome · 23/06/2024 11:45

SwordToFlamethrower · 23/06/2024 10:54

Why are we allowing this? You can't change your sex! Gender is load of sexist bs stereotyped and I'm so sick of it.

There are NO circumstances where this is ok or appropriate. A child who wants to be the opposite sex or take on sexist stereotypes needs therapy, not pandering, Jesus.

Agree. Why should children have to say the opposite of what they can see is true? I would take my DC out of a school that did this and tell everyone why.

MrsOvertonsWindow · 23/06/2024 11:30

I think that some of the teachers with cases that were lost were because they were in breach of a school's social media policy or involved children in their debate.
If you decide to raise any concerns then you need to do so in a way that acknowledges the "management instruction" to comply, reassure that you will not engage in fostering disagreement but - in terms of safeguarding - ask for clarification about certain matters? This could include issues like:

  1. Are the instructions written in the light of Cass's warnings about schools engaging in socially transitioning despite the lack of evidence that this is a psychologically "safe" action to carry out on children?
  2. How do the new draft guidelines impact on the school's actions.
  3. Is there a "script" for adults to use with children who question why a boy now claims to be a girl? (or vice versa)
  4. Does this have an impact on discussions about telling the truth with young children?
  5. How will misgendering be dealt with? Will children be punished for this?
  6. Might there be any subsequent legal challenge to adults who socially transition a primary child in school if when older, the child claims inappropriate adult influence and failure to safeguard them?

There are no easy answers to this. Transactivists have held the public space for so long that issues about children's rights & safety, how little ones negotiate reality and fiction, truth and lies, have all been ignored. Let alone the psychological damage done to a young child:

"Social transition isn’t reversible, because what we tell our children for years can’t be reversed. When we disconnect them from their biological sex, we set up patterns of denial and secrets. We set them up to hate their bodies at puberty, to beg for blockers and binders, because for years we told them they could change sex, and they believed us. They are desperate to go back to the years when no one knew any different, but that time will never come again. Time is not reversible".

(from the Transgender Trend article linked above).

Toseland · 23/06/2024 11:14

Every time a girl has to lie to herself or to others, she can't name accurately who is male and who is female then you are breaking down her instinct, her barriers that all women and girls rely on to keep them safe from male preditors.

RobinStrike · 23/06/2024 11:06

This is so tricky. I feel for you as if you have a whole SLT supporting the change in name and pronouns you will have problems. Do you teach the child? It worries me that it is compelling other children to lie/believe untruths about this child. What happens when a child disagrees? Are they to be sanctioned by saying the wrong pronoun? Can you sound out some SLT members individually to see if any have the same reservations as you or are open to discussion? Are there other staff members who feel the same? Although I suspect you may be unwilling to have these conversations in case they are referred upwards. Can you speak to your union rep to ask where you stand if another child questions this and you feel it is wrong to use a lie to support the child? Because it could come down to which child you defend and surely then the union should see you have to defend the truth?

itispersonal · 23/06/2024 10:57

WarriorN · 23/06/2024 10:49

But that's what got the other teacher sacked!!

Sacked? A teacher at your school was sacked for speaking out specifically about about gender questioning children?

No the 'Hannah' teacher,
But there's also Kevin lister and the chaplain at another school. Who got fired for speaking out or following the line!

OP posts:
SwordToFlamethrower · 23/06/2024 10:54

Why are we allowing this? You can't change your sex! Gender is load of sexist bs stereotyped and I'm so sick of it.

There are NO circumstances where this is ok or appropriate. A child who wants to be the opposite sex or take on sexist stereotypes needs therapy, not pandering, Jesus.

WarriorN · 23/06/2024 10:50

Do you mean at your school or Kevin Lister?

WarriorN · 23/06/2024 10:49

But that's what got the other teacher sacked!!

Sacked? A teacher at your school was sacked for speaking out specifically about about gender questioning children?

itispersonal · 23/06/2024 10:29

MrsOvertonsWindow · 23/06/2024 10:08

In addition to all the excellent advice above, this is what SLT need to read - written by a clinical psychologist.
They're dabbling in sex change for children - a social experiment with potentially devastating psychological consequences. Keep framing the issues as "an experiment". Ask what qualifications adults in schools have in transitioning children and selling a lie to other children?

https://www.transgendertrend.com/childhood-social-transition/

.

Great article and it's how I feel about the child and the situation. Adults need to be truthful about the reality of their sex and allowing them to express themselves how they wish! But socially transitioning and telling them and the other children a lie confuses them and distorts reality!

OP posts:
MsGoodenough · 23/06/2024 10:28

I really feel for you OP. I don't think the teacher got sacked for raising a safeguarding concern but for making private information public (if I am thinking of the same case you are). I am a secondary teacher and have pushed back hard on this (and not been sacked so far!) but to be honest I'm not sure I would have done if I didn't have a DP who could support me and dd if the worst happened. The Unions would not support us if we got in trouble over this so they are no help at all. Have you considered joining the Free Speech Union? I have joined in addition to the NEU so I would have their support if needed. There is also SEEN in schools who could offer you support.

itispersonal · 23/06/2024 10:21

WarriorN · 23/06/2024 10:02

Raise this with the DSL and the DSL governor. Raise it as a safeguarding concern in writing, quoting key paragraphs.

But that's what got the other teacher sacked!!

OP posts:
MrsOvertonsWindow · 23/06/2024 10:08

In addition to all the excellent advice above, this is what SLT need to read - written by a clinical psychologist.
They're dabbling in sex change for children - a social experiment with potentially devastating psychological consequences. Keep framing the issues as "an experiment". Ask what qualifications adults in schools have in transitioning children and selling a lie to other children?

https://www.transgendertrend.com/childhood-social-transition/

.

A childhood is not reversible - Transgender Trend

Childhood social transition is seen as 'kind.' A clinical psychologist explains what we set a child up for when we socially transition them.

https://www.transgendertrend.com/childhood-social-transition

WarriorN · 23/06/2024 10:02

Raise this with the DSL and the DSL governor. Raise it as a safeguarding concern in writing, quoting key paragraphs.

WarriorN · 23/06/2024 10:01

It's not opinions though; based on evidence in Cass this child has started a medical pathway.

You can't discuss the life long impact of the medication on their sexual function, continence and fertility with children.

itispersonal · 23/06/2024 09:49

WarriorN · 23/06/2024 09:29

I would raise this with SLT.

They may be naive to what Cass actually says and this may have been discussed and agreed with parents before the updated safeguarding guidelines came out (KCSIE.)

It needs to be laid out for them and the potential harm that could occur. Social transition is not a neutral act.

Who ever is "advising" them may also not be as aware of Cass and kcsie as they should be.

They are very unlikely to be aware that the NHS training materials are also in line with Cass and can be found here. www.minded.org.uk/Catalogue/Index?HierarchyId=0_59819&programmeId=59819

(Teaching professionals can make a feee account to access them)

I agree that the case you've linked would be worth sharing with them, to illustrate both the lack of due diligence in the advice, especially post Cass, but also how LAs and others who might "advise" are woefully ignorant to the wider issues.

It was just spoken about this week message from parents on Tuesday! So no one has really looked into it! I've no idea who is advising but all of SLT seems to be onboard and staff have been told to keep opinions to themselves!

OP posts:
Myalternate · 23/06/2024 09:46

My boys (twins) turned 4 this month and will be starting primary school this September. I’m dreading it.

WarriorN · 23/06/2024 09:41

That social transition tends to mean child is more likely to move to medical pathway.

I'd then be describing the growing numbers of detransitioners, including those who did so as adults. Children do not have ability to understand the wider implications

WarriorN · 23/06/2024 09:39

12.31 in Cass may be useful

And 71-79, especially 76.

WarriorN · 23/06/2024 09:29

I would raise this with SLT.

They may be naive to what Cass actually says and this may have been discussed and agreed with parents before the updated safeguarding guidelines came out (KCSIE.)

It needs to be laid out for them and the potential harm that could occur. Social transition is not a neutral act.

Who ever is "advising" them may also not be as aware of Cass and kcsie as they should be.

They are very unlikely to be aware that the NHS training materials are also in line with Cass and can be found here. www.minded.org.uk/Catalogue/Index?HierarchyId=0_59819&programmeId=59819

(Teaching professionals can make a feee account to access them)

I agree that the case you've linked would be worth sharing with them, to illustrate both the lack of due diligence in the advice, especially post Cass, but also how LAs and others who might "advise" are woefully ignorant to the wider issues.

sashh · 23/06/2024 09:28

Gender critical beliefs are protected by the law.

I'm not sure the unisex toilets are legal wither.

Are you in a union?

Do you have legal cover on your house insurance?

EnglishBluebell · 23/06/2024 09:28

WarriorN · 23/06/2024 07:47

Are you primary or secondary?

It literally says Primary in the title!

itispersonal · 23/06/2024 09:19

LittleLittleRex · 23/06/2024 09:14

Our school walked the line between not using pronouns they'd been told (by the parents) upset the child and not actually lying. So the trans kids are always referred to by name, not he or she.

It's going to be a name change and pronouns!!!!!!!

OP posts:
nothingcomestonothing · 23/06/2024 09:16

itispersonal · 23/06/2024 09:11

@nothingcomestonothing

This is another of my feeling - oh the other children are so accepting it's their parents who will have issue. Children don't know any different, but they are being encouraged to lie and without a say! Will they be told off if they say the wrong pronoun or name?

Other staff saying it's the just like the next barrier - like racism and sexuality. No it's actually not.

We already have unisex toilets which now all smell of pee and horrible to use! Which impacts on girls and their toileting habits and comfort!

Yes the children will be accepting because they trust the adults who are employed at their school. What does it say about those adults, if they are willing to exploit that trust and gaslight the children who trust them? Nothing good. To quote Glinner, don't tell children they can be born in the wrong body, because they are children and will believe you.

Your colleagues are either true believers or #bekind non thinkers. How you best deal with them depends which you assess them to be.