Using preferred pronouns in primary school

@Leafstamp I've not read the book, just the article. Do we know that teddy's sadness goes away if teddy changes gender? Does teddy transition in the story?Or are the Year 6 children just being told that a teddy who feels that their body doesn't match the way they feel is likely to feel sad about that?

I doubt any of the schools where this book is used let it be read in isolation - there's likely to be teaching and discussion around the material. I think that's healthy.

Going back to my question, do you think it is problematic that Year 6 children are taught that some people perceive themselves to be transgendered?

Perhaps there are a small number of examples where children have been directly told that a boy is now a girl, or vice versa. If so, it's perhaps a bit of a disproportionate response if people are dreading sending children to primary school due to a small number of such cases.

I disagree. If it's possible for a small number of cases to change sex, then it's possible for anyone. Social contagion is huge amongst school-age kids, especially regarding anything that would make them feel like they belong to a particular 'tribe'. This has always been the case, and kids and especially teens have always experimented with their identity. Perfectly normal.

But adults colluding in this, and encouraging other children to use language which gives validates and gives credence to what might have been very temporary experiments in children who may only have explored a 'gender identity" due to curiosity or peer pressure is very worrying. Though no more worrying than in the case of vulnerable children seeking to escape their birth sex due to trauma, ASD or body dysmorphia for example.

Thanks for reading the articles and considering them @rzb

The problem is the messaging. Teddy’s sadness will go away if he ‘changes gender’.

More likely Teddy is sad for other reasons. (Please look at the comorbidities discussed in the Cass Report).

As for pronouns. Google Stroop test, and read the ‘Pronouns are rohypnol’ article.

Keep researching!

@Leafstamp

Having read both articles, I can see that whilst Errol the teddy seems to be taking an approach to Thomas the teddy in line with that suggested in the subsequent article you linked (Teddy 1 perceives that they are a girl teddy and not a boy teddy; Teddy 2, their friend, then says they don't care if Teddy 1 is a girl teddy or a boy teddy, and that what matters is being a friend), 10 year olds don't often pay much attention to stories about teddies, so this teaching is unlikely to get that message across to Year 6 students.

“Thomas the teddy took a deep breath – ‘I need to be myself Errol, in my heart I’ve always known that I’m a girl teddy not a boy teddy. I wish my name was Tilly not Thomas’.
“‘Oh, is that why you’ve been so sad’, Errol asked. ‘I don’t care if you’re a girl teddy or a boy teddy – what matters is that you are my friend’.”

If the effectiveness of the teaching wasn't the concern you were trying to convey, then I'd also reflect that the first article doesn't provide evidence that children were taught that 'they have an inner gendered soul'. The notion that children have been taught that they can be 'born in the wrong body' is wording from a campaigner. The article does not make the case that children have been taught this.

Do you think it is problematic that Year 6 children are taught that some people perceive themselves to be transgendered? That seems to be what the article boils down to, plus a few quotes from campaigners which seem to have been selected for the purposes of winding up readers.

It seems possible to me to ask people to use a different name and pronouns for someone who has asked other people to do this for them without asking them to dismiss the evidence of their own eyes. e.g., if I were to ask a class of kids to call Bob 'Evie' from now on, and to please use she/her/hers pronouns, that can be done without asking children to believe that Bob is female, or has been born in the wrong body. This is one area in which the drive to teach children grammar is actually helpful - unlike my generation, kids these days get taught what pronouns are.

Perhaps there are a small number of examples where children have been directly told that a boy is now a girl, or vice versa. If so, it's perhaps a bit of a disproportionate response if people are dreading sending children to primary school due to a small number of such cases. This would be particularly true if it transpired that some of the cases people get wound up about turn out to be examples of the sort of messaging they are actually in favour of.

@rzb I suggested the article to help you understand why teaching young children that people have some sort of inner gendered soul is harmful.

If that one didn’t do it for you, you might read these:

https://archive.ph/C1kzo

https://www.transgendertrend.com/childhood-social-transition/

Whilst the latter is about a child socially transitioning, please remember it is all the other children that are actually making that process take place - they are the ones being asked to dismiss the evidence of their eyes.

That's disingenuous.
My dd came home from school age 7 very indignant because the teacher had said horses have their knees on backwards. Why ever the teacher said that, it was just one teacher and there are no big problems caused by a kid thinking that - because there is no international campaign trying to mislead people about horse's feet.
My dd now a teenager struggles to even speak about trans identity or anything connected because all those messages are part of a concerted campaign weighed down with "no debate".
She doesn't just require critical thinking, but immense courage to even explore her own thoughts inside the privacy of her mind.

@Leafstamp I read the article you linked. It doesn't have much to say about what's occurring in primary schools.

@Myalternate You worry that a teacher is going to tell your boys that they might grow up to women, to the point that you are dreading your children going to school? My kids get told lots of things at school that I disagree with, and other things which are presented as facts but which are simply incorrect - teachers can and do get things wrong, and it's important that kids know this. When we talk after school, where I think they've been told something which is incorrect, I provide the correct information and, importantly, the reasons I trust the source of that information. Where they're expressing an opinion which isn't one I hold, we talk about that, too. It's very normal for children to be exposed to incorrect information and views that you don't agree with whilst they're at school, and this exposure to duff info and contrary views is a feature of life, and will only become more of an issue with the advancement of AI. Rather than dreading this and the questions your children might come home with, you could see it as an opportunity to help them develop their critical thinking skills.

Thank you!

I’m surprised the question was asked when the topic of the thread was about the concerns some parents have that even primary school children are not protected from the insidious creep of gender ideology.

This article might also help you understand @rzb

www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-12905027/amp/gender-ideology-crime-against-generation-julie-bindel.html

I should imagine things like:

”Mummy, Miss Jones said that I might be a lady when I grow up”

”Mummy, my friend Grace likes football, I think she might actually be a boy inside”

Gender ideology is a dangerous thing to teach children. Especially little ones.

Why are you dreading this? What terrible things do you worry may happen to your twin boys at school?

There is a consultation still ongoing on the RHSE Guidance though, which is also relevant:https://consult.education.gov.uk/rshe-team/review-of-the-rshe-statutory-guidance/
Deadline 11th July

I'm so sorry. I must have had a 'senior' moment 🙄

Yeah 😹 it wouldn’t be feasible not to use it.

Consider joining the free speech union. I think asking questions persistently 'are we compliant with Cass?' 'is the advice to staff consistent with Gender Critical beliefs being legally viewed as worthy of respect in a democratic society?' 'are there any risks or disadvantages to the child or to other children from this approach?' 'could the school be liable to future law suits if not consistent with Cass?' 'how will the school treat staff who disagree with the request?' 'will staff be encouraged to speak freely about any safeguarding concerns they have in this situation?' Get these questions in front of the governors.

The consultation ended in March. I imagine if Labour gets in the whole thing will be shelved and we are back to square one.

https://sex-matters.org/posts/schools-and-safeguarding/responding-to-the-schools-guidance-consultation/

Have you seen this @itispersonal?

I'm encouraging everyone to respond to the consultation, it ends quite soon.

Wish I could be more helpful. I'm so glad I'm retired ( teacher and adviser) I would have been sacked!

Because pronouns are a normal part of speech and crop up naturally when you talk. Obviously when talking to someone directly, the pronoun you use is 'you', but when you are in a group of people it's also normal to need to refer to someone in the 3rd person while they are present.

Because it's much harder to remove them entirely from speech!

"Give Lucy back her pencil please Michael"
"David is that your coat or his?"

Why to use pronouns at all for kids?

It's outdated.

They need to update their resource tools to stuff that reflects Cass.

It's that simple and it's a case that's hard to argue with.

I don’t know if this will help, but could you go in gently with head/DSL and ask them to read around the topic (Cass Report) rather than blindly agreeing to this. Does the child have any of the known comorbities? Autism, trauma, mental health issues, dysfunctional screen usage?

Also, ask them to think about the impact on the other children in the class/school. Does the child have a sibling?

Is the proposed plan in the best interest of all of these children?

You’re right that there is no statutory guidance but the following may also be useful. It urges extreme caution.
https://questions-statements.parliament.uk/written-statements/detail/2023-07-20/hcws983

I work in a secondary school and when this has come up have raised it with SLT.

i am very uncomfortable with the "avoiding pronouns" approach because it feels like crossing fingers behind my back.

Theoretically we can't be compelled to lie but in practice lining up for assembly doesn't feel like a good time to find out how an individual child will respond to the truth.

Personallly I would just avoid using pronouns. I teach in a (girls'!) secondary school. We have a few students who have changed name and/or wish to be referred to as 'they' or 'he'. I never do this, I just call them and refer to them by their name.

These are very good questions. When my school were proposing a policy of immediate social transition I requested a meeting with the Head and DSL (who fully supported the policy - people here are naive if they think every DSL will be against this) where I went through the policy point by point and pointed out where it didn't fit with Cass (the interim review at the time) or KCSIE. The result is it has all been pushed into the long grass and some teachers use new names/pronouns and others don't, which is hardly ideal but is better than the alternative. I would request a meeting OP and go in with a lot of notes and info at your finger tips. Or do similar by email if you prefer to take the time to think and plan it all out.

Those posters advising speaking to the Union are, I presume, not familiar with teaching unions. All the teaching unions are fully signed up to gender ideology and officially hold the view that the new gender questioning guidance is transphobic and ideologically driven (oh the irony). I wouldn't speak to your Union rep unless you know for certain they have GC leanings. (I am NEU rep at my school, but I know the NEU wouldn't lift a finger to help me if I got into trouble over this).