Using preferred pronouns in primary school

Well as far as I'm concerned, the boys would never have reasons to be there. One reason we can EXIST, literally, is by having spaces (like Ladies toilets) which we can retreat into if harassed. It's certainly happened to me (at school, at college, in shopping malls) and the LAST thing I would want to see in there is a person with a p.

It's teaching girls that they have no right to boundaries. That their privacy and safety matters nothing compared to the rights of a predator determined to access them when vulnerable.

And we know how predators are attracted to places where children gather like moths to a flame.

Definitely. And at that age most of the children won't necessarily understand any "rights" and "wrongs". Some girls will behave as I would have done and be so embarrassed about boys being in "their" spaces that they'll try not to have to use them, whereas others may think that using toilets with boys listening or even peeping is "normal" (and its no good ppl saying "oh they wont be ALLOWED to", cos I know from my schooldays that if boys CAN do something, they WILL do it!).

Yes and it's not just about how the girls feel about it at the time, it's also the message it sends about future occasions a girl might find a man or boy in her single sex space.

It is essentially teaching her that boys and men in single sex spaces is ok because they might have really special reasons to be there. It is teaching her that it is "kind" to care about the feelings of any boys or men she encounters in single sex spaces in the future. And lord knows the coercive pressure on girls to be kind is insidious and starts young.

I agree NPET but I'm worried that some activist teachers, and apparently whatever idiot wrote the CofE schools' guidance are very much pre-Cass and pro transition. There's room for an awful lot of harm to happen to vulnerable kids.

I wondered when this would come up. Personally it's the toileting (for want of a better word) that I would consider the main "problem" here. There is NO way that a schoolgirl should have to accept boys (or I suppose I have to say "children with a p") entering "their" toilets or changing rooms. I know that, however accepting or "forgiving" I would have been at that age, I would not have been prepared to use a toilet with a boy standing outside the door or in the stall next door, and girls should not be expected to accept this.

Possibly the one benefit of teachers becoming harder to recruit.

If enough teachers had the active support of unions to reject this completely, it would soon fail - how many schools would happily start suspending the few teachers they still have right left and centre, of more of this stuff blew up?

Now that Cass is here, teachers have ammunition to fight back on these ‘requests’.

Come on, you know that a 'request' from a teacher is an expectation of compliance. And children know that too. Trusted adults telling children that whether you are a boy or a girl is a matter of choice, is not okay because it's not true.

What other 'requests' should teachers be making of their class, so one child's feelings about themselves can be validated? Does Sarah feel more comfortable if she's referred to as Queen Sarah? Does Nigel want us all to go along with his feeling that he's be more comfortable as a year 3, despite being year 6? I know you'll say those are silly examples, but they're no different than asking children to use wrong sex pronouns to make another person happy.

@nothingcomestonothing

You're asking all of the children to buy into gender ideology.

No, that's an over-extrapolation from suggesting a request can be made for a child to have different pronouns used about them because of the way they are feeling. A child's feelings and opinions about themselves should be expressed in that manner, as feelings and opinions. I think I've been consistent throughout with that.

We have a big drive to talk about gender stereotypes and how your sex doesn't matter when it comes to all manner of things.

Then you have some adults come along and say, 'Naaaaa ignore all that. Here's gender identity. You MUST use these pronouns for your peer performing gender stereotypes. Oh and your personal boundaries and dignity when using the changing rooms and toilets don't matter'.

Yes it does kinda matter.

My son's school have a situation in the year above. When they did the sex and reproduction talk last year, he stayed with the girls. A few (including one from a Muslim family) were really upset about it. I don't believe anyone complained because they feel they can't complain. But privately it's certainly caused distress amongst the girls. Reminder - this is 9 and 10 year olds just starting periods. This kid plays with the girls and they like him generally but there are comments about how he also makes them feel uncomfortable at times and they don't feel like they can challenge his behaviour either. It's really awful.

@AllProperTeaIsTheft Is it your view that the phenomenon of social contagion should lead all parents to dread sending their children to school because they could socially 'catch' any number of behaviours or emotions that the parent deems to be undesirable? Or should there be a particular level of concern surrounding changing pronouns?

No, that is not my view. I think that influence by peers is something every parent worries about to a certain extent (and rightly so). What is more worrying, as I thought I made clear in my post, was the more recent situation where schools and teachers are colluding with this.

Changing pronouns appears to me to be more immediately reversible than, say, a short haircut, to use an an example from one of the links @Leafstamp shared.

That's very obviously not true at all. Hair growing back is inevitable. Retreating publicly from a change of identity which you've publicly announced, having asked all your peers and teachers to respect your important transition must be very very hard, even for an adult, never mind a vulnerable child/teen. Not only would it potentially be very humiliating and embarrassing, it could also alienate a friendship group who you'd been using your transition to fit in with. Supporting or encouraging a child's social transitioning is not a neutral or necessarily reversible act. It has consequences.

You're asking all of the children to buy into gender ideology. Desmond thinking of himself as a girl means what? He isn't one. Femaleness isn't an idea in a male's head, it's a biological reality. You're teaching the whole class that being a girl or boy is optional - it isn't. Schools must not teach beliefs as fact, the government has (finally) been quite clear about that.

@nothingcomestonothing I don't think I've suggested compelling anywhere. Do let me know if you spot where I have done this.

@MarieDeGournay Telling a class (your wording) to do something would be different from presenting a request (my wording). English usage also evolves over time, and kids are pretty flexible in their use of language.

Educators will teach, for example, chemistry to different levels without giving children an intricate grounding in quantum mechanics. Sure, some kids will always continue to ask why, why, why, and ultimately they don't get their nth question answered and teaching moves on. Explaining that a person feels more comfortable with a particular set of pronouns will likely cause a bit more interest than a chemistry class. For young kids, something along the lines of 'Desmond felt happier when he thought of himself as a girl called Sheila, and has asked to be called Sheila, and that you use she/her/hers pronouns. Sheila's favourite food is still KFC...' will be enough.

Will all kids accept that? Unlikely. Is there a perfect solution to these kinds of scenarios? No. Is any of this easy for anyone involved? Also no, and I suspect least of all the kid who'd like to go by a different name and set of pronouns.

@rzb

I wasn’t actually referring to the typo, I don’t even understand what transgender means, really.

For me, it doesn’t seem to have a coherent definition.

Even stonewall say ‘trans’ is an umbrella term that includes cross dressers.

People who call themselves transgender have VERY different reasons and motivations for calling themselves that. And those factors make it too complex for a primary school child to understand IMO.

Asking children to use wrong sex pronouns is discrimination against ND children, children with learning differences, children with English as an additional language, as well as placing one child's wishes and beliefs above those of other children.

Pronouns are sex based in the English language, you are asking other children to unlearn what they've learnt, to keep one child happy, notwithstanding the effect on anyone else. Making one child's wishes paramount is a recipe for social contagion as well as for disruption to everyone's learning. Plus, what will the consequences be for not complying? If my child was punished for using correct sex pronouns I would be asking to meet with the head and asking to see the risk assessment and equality impact assessment they had based their decision making on.

It is not for my child or any child to have to make another child more comfortable, when what would make them more comfortable is compelling others' speech. You can call yourself he/she/xie, but you can't compel others to do so.

That's a pretty dull story. I'd have been disappointed if it'd be read to my kids when they were little, because it's not going to help develop a love of reading. It might even be worthy of some outrage for taking time from the kids' school day to be read a crap story.

Is the subject matter unsuitable material for young children? I don't think so. If I'd have read that to my kids when they were younger, I imagine they'd have asked some questions relating to the name change. I'd have explained that one Teddy wanted to be known by a different name and their friends started using that name for them, and we'd probably have then moved onto a much better book, probably involving talking coyotes.

presenting the request to use different pronouns because a child feels they would be more comfortable being referred to with, for example, she/her/hers rather than he/him/his
You've strayed into the problematic again, rbz!
It's problematic to expect an educator to tell a class of children that standard English usage is to be intermittently abandoned to make one child more 'comfortable'.
The question that will pop into the enquiring mind of most children would be 'But why does Desmond now want to be called Sheila and be referred to with she/her/hers?'
Well, Miss? Sir? Teacher? what answer can you give that doesn't require going into the whole meaning of transgenderism? And that doesn't require pointing out the scientific fact - it is a school, after all - that nobody, not even Desmond, can actually change sex?

@Leafstamp Pity, it looks like I can't edit it. That'll teach me for not reading the Mumsnet smallprint.

@MarieDeGournay I could get very on board with the concept that there are other things which could take higher priority in the curriculum. Critical thinking skills, nutrition, government and politics, better and more PE, and earlier and more extensive teaching of modern foreign languages are all things I'd like to see, and losing some elements of PSHE would be fine. Perhaps we could create a window in the curriculum by spending less time teaching Year 3 (?) kids what a fronted adverbial is...

Does the Cass report apply to Wales? Have an issue here but with an older teenager.

@Leafstamp It means a slip of brain/fingers happens sometimes as we get older. Thanks for pointing that out - I'll edit it ;-)

@AllProperTeaIsTheft Is it your view that the phenomenon of social contagion should lead all parents to dread sending their children to school because they could socially 'catch' any number of behaviours or emotions that the parent deems to be undesirable? Or should there be a particular level of concern surrounding changing pronouns?

Changing pronouns appears to me to be more immediately reversible than, say, a short haircut, to use an an example from one of the links @Leafstamp shared. The reason given for a pronoun change should be presented carefully: presenting the request to use different pronouns because a child feels they would be more comfortable being referred to with, for example, she/her/hers rather than he/him/his, is different from saying that, for example, 'Desmond is actually a girl named Sheila, and because Sheila is a girl, Sheila uses she/her/hers pronouns'.

Going back to my question, do you think it is problematic that Year 6 children are taught that some people perceive themselves to be transgendered?
Yes I do think it is somewhat problematic, rzb.
It seems disproportionate and unnecessary in a busy curriculum to include the perceptions of such a small number of people.

There are nearly 67 million people in the UK, and I bet a lot of them perceive themselves to be lots of things - should Year 6 children be taught about all these self-perceptions, or just the self-perceptions of 0.5%* of the population?
[contested].

The Teddy book is aimed at much younger children than year 6. You can decide for yourself on the suitability of the messaging towards little children here: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ddRmNpLYgCM

What does transgendered mean?