Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

The Brontes have been 'queered'

237 replies

biddyboo · 20/06/2024 07:44

For Pride month, the Bronte Parsonage museum has posted a number of Facebook posts exploring the Brontes and 'gender identity'

https://www.facebook.com/share/p/eGENRmGQPkz7omY5/

The posts talk about the Brontes using 'androgynous' pseudonyms, rather than the male pseudonyms they were necessitated to use due to the sexism of the times they lived in 😕

It hasn't gone down well. Comments were disabled, and the museum posted about commitment to equality and diversity and not tolerating bullying and hatred (I haven't seen evidence of this, just a lot of people outraged about history being rewritten to suit a narrative).

Log in or sign up to view

See posts, photos and more on Facebook.

https://www.facebook.com/share/p/eGENRmGQPkz7omY5

OP posts:
Thread gallery
11
MissScarletInTheBallroom · 20/06/2024 13:19

BIossomtoes · 20/06/2024 13:09

Shakespeare played with gender in many of his plays. You know this and are just being disingenuous. Virginia Woolf wrote about a trans character in Orlando in the 1920s. It’s pointless you pretending this issue didn’t appear in literature in the past when it patently did. It’s a concept that has been explored for centuries.

Shakespeare wrote characters who disguised themselves as the opposite sex. When he used this plot device he had to be very obvious about it. Lots of asides along the lines of, "I'm really a woman but I'm dressed as a man, hope I don't get found out!!!" to remind the audience that the man on stage was playing a woman who was pretending to be a man, because they were not allowed to have an actual woman playing the female character.

That has nothing to do with people in the 21st century identifying as trans or non binary or gender fluid or what have you. These concepts did not exist in Shakespeare's time.

Virginia Woolf is a completely different author who was writing more than 300 years after Shakespeare.

BIossomtoes · 20/06/2024 13:09

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 20/06/2024 12:09

There are no trans characters in Shakespeare.

Shakespeare played with gender in many of his plays. You know this and are just being disingenuous. Virginia Woolf wrote about a trans character in Orlando in the 1920s. It’s pointless you pretending this issue didn’t appear in literature in the past when it patently did. It’s a concept that has been explored for centuries.

dougalfromthemagicroundabout · 20/06/2024 13:09

Gender identity didn't exist and didn't need to exist at the time of the Brontes because men could oppress women more openly.

It's offensive to talk about GI and not sexism, it's erasing the 'lived reality / experience' of the Bronte sisters.

EmpressaurusDeiGatti · 20/06/2024 13:05

Gender is basically about stupid, misogynist & old fashioned sex role stereotypes, however you look at it. That’s that the Brontes were having to deal with and also George Eliot, Dr James Barry & plenty of others.

The idea that being a woman or a man is down to social stereotypes, personality, presentation or anything except biological sex is ridiculous in a civilised society.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 20/06/2024 12:55

MrsWhattery · 20/06/2024 12:38

I rarely agree with you @Blossomtoesbut Shakespeare is definitely the king of gender fluidity.

Hmm I'd say he's more the king of male and female disguises, and storylines that absolutely depend on us knowing the actual sex of the disguised character to make any sense. (With an added layer of jokery based on the fact that the actor may not have been the same sex as the character, still dependent on us understanding people's sexes and the sex binary)

Viola in 12th night, Rosalind in As you like it are classic examples. They are in disguise. They TALK about the fact that they are in disguise and their reality as a female person under the disguise. They do not change sex or even "gender" nor are they questioning their "gender identity". The only fluidity involved is in their costumes, and the resulting perceptions of them by others. At the end, all is revealed and each female, formerly disguised character is still female and furthermore follows a fully straight, and feminine-gendered, path, getting married to an alpha male. No one is confused about their own sex or "gender identity".

This.

The film "Shakespeare in Love" took this one step further, with Gwyneth Paltrow binding her breasts to disguise herself as a boy so she could play Romeo, whilst an actual boy played Juliet.

Of course this would not have been necessary if women had been allowed to act on stage, or if women had been allowed to identify as men to be able to act on stage and then play female characters.

Having a man on stage playing a female character always adds a comedic element whether you want it to or not. That's fine when you have a man playing a character such as the Nurse or Mistress Quickly or even one of the three witches, but must have been a bit of a shame for Shakespeare to have written something beautiful and then be forced to have a male actor playing 14 year old Juliet, or Miranda, or Lady Macbeth.

In the plays where female characters dress as male characters, the plot absolutely relies on everyone understanding what sex the character really is, even if the actor playing that character at the time the play was written had to be male.

Triskeline · 20/06/2024 12:50

Ingenieur · 20/06/2024 09:13

The gender of the authors was hotly debated

Interesting that they are using gender here as a synonym for sex, because contemporary critics were absolutely not debating gender in the way it is sometimes meant now...

Yes, the Brontës weren’t concealing their ‘gender’, they were concealing their sex, and Charlotte says somewhere, maybe in her introduction to the reissued Wuthering Heights, that they deliberately choose names that seemed vaguely masculine but weren’t incontrovertibly male like Charles, Algernon and Edward would have been. And scholarly work done on the reception and reviews of Wuthering Heights when it was thought to be by a man versus when it was known to be by a woman shows striking differences.

I will look up the article by Shim on queerness in Villette, but worth pointing out the author is still a doctoral student; many of us would look back at stuff we published then and think ‘Okayyy…’

Probably unfair without reading the essay, but Lucy retains her female dress, just adding a hat, jacket and combing back her front hair to make her readable as ‘meant to be playing a man in a girls’ school play’, because she’s worried about the proprieties, as a friendless foreign teacher not long promoted from nursery governess, not out of some kind of relish in playing with boundaries.

And she finds she enjoys acting, but because the role allows her temporary access to a freedom she otherwise hadn’t got access to, even as a first person narrator (she’s famously reticent, and conceals key facts from the reader, like why she’s alone in the world, who Dr John is, what happens to Paul Emanuel) — it’s like Jane Eyre’s drawings.

catscatscurrantscurrants · 20/06/2024 12:49

Shirley Keeldar, the heroine of Shirley has, by 19th century standards, a masculine name - because her parents gave it to her. They wanted an heir and got an heiress. That doesn't make Shirley 'queer'; it means, as an heiress and a landowner, she has some freedoms of action not usually accorded to young women at that time. I wish organisations would just stop with this revisionist crap.

MrsWhattery · 20/06/2024 12:38

I rarely agree with you @Blossomtoesbut Shakespeare is definitely the king of gender fluidity.

Hmm I'd say he's more the king of male and female disguises, and storylines that absolutely depend on us knowing the actual sex of the disguised character to make any sense. (With an added layer of jokery based on the fact that the actor may not have been the same sex as the character, still dependent on us understanding people's sexes and the sex binary)

Viola in 12th night, Rosalind in As you like it are classic examples. They are in disguise. They TALK about the fact that they are in disguise and their reality as a female person under the disguise. They do not change sex or even "gender" nor are they questioning their "gender identity". The only fluidity involved is in their costumes, and the resulting perceptions of them by others. At the end, all is revealed and each female, formerly disguised character is still female and furthermore follows a fully straight, and feminine-gendered, path, getting married to an alpha male. No one is confused about their own sex or "gender identity".

Dumbo12 · 20/06/2024 12:36

SirSidneyRuffDiamond · 20/06/2024 12:09

As an interesting (to me anyway) aside I noticed recently that Lizzie Borden's middle name was Andrew (after her father) and her own mother's middle name was Anthony. Does anyone know whether this was a common occurrence in 19th Century USA? Was this done in families with no male children to carry on the family surname? Nothing to do with gender though.

In the geographical area the Bronté sisters lived, it was exceptionally commonplace for men to have surnames as Christian names. It was much less so for women to. To confuse the issue a little more, it was not uncommon to refer to female relatives by their surname, for example "Aunt Bronté" Grandmother Bronté, cousin Bronté.

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 20/06/2024 12:09

BIossomtoes · 20/06/2024 11:59

Identifying as a different gender wasn't a concept that existed back then.

I refer you to Shakespeare who I believe preceded the Brontes by a couple of centuries.

There are no trans characters in Shakespeare.

SirSidneyRuffDiamond · 20/06/2024 12:09

As an interesting (to me anyway) aside I noticed recently that Lizzie Borden's middle name was Andrew (after her father) and her own mother's middle name was Anthony. Does anyone know whether this was a common occurrence in 19th Century USA? Was this done in families with no male children to carry on the family surname? Nothing to do with gender though.

Dumbo12 · 20/06/2024 12:06

The conflation of breaking sexist stereotypes and "gender fluidity" may well explain why we are currently in the mess we are. Women didn't break the stereotypes to become men, they did it to be women who could do what they chose to do.

fedupandstuck · 20/06/2024 12:02

Cross dressing, or playing a cross sex role is not the same as having a "gender identity", @BIossomtoes Shakespeare wasn't commenting on "gender identity" he was commenting on sex-based roles and expectations, and what can happen when someone presents as the opposite sex.

BIossomtoes · 20/06/2024 11:59

Identifying as a different gender wasn't a concept that existed back then.

I refer you to Shakespeare who I believe preceded the Brontes by a couple of centuries.

BIossomtoes · 20/06/2024 11:58

Mirabai · 20/06/2024 11:56

I rarely agree with you @Blossomtoes but Shakespeare is definitely the king of gender fluidity.

🥂

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 20/06/2024 11:58

Flickersy · 20/06/2024 08:13

I'm posting screenshots for those who don't have FB. Apart from the idea that Lucy (a character) played a gender queer role, everything else here is historically accurate and although I think it's a stretch to shoehorn it into Pride week, it's true that the sisters used androgynous publishing names because of expectations around mens and women's roles in society at the time.

This has absolutely nothing to do with Pride though. There's no evidence whatsoever that any of the Brontes were same sex attracted or identified as anything other than women. (Identifying as a different gender wasn't a concept that existed back then.)

biddyboo · 20/06/2024 11:58

Scruffily · 20/06/2024 10:58

It wasn't really because they thought they would have difficulty getting published, but because they were concerned about the preconceptions that would affect reactions to their work if people knew they were women - especially given the nature of their work. Being a woman wasn't necessarily a barrier in itself to being published, as Jane Austen demonstrated in the previous century; her name wasn't shown on her books during her lifetime, but the author was stated to be "A Lady".

Yes, I agree, and in the post you've quoted I said "and to avoid the scandal of a woman having written about the topics they covered".

OP posts:
Mirabai · 20/06/2024 11:56

BIossomtoes · 20/06/2024 10:15

Shakespeare was the greatest gender bender of all time. He doesn’t need “them” to do it to him.

I rarely agree with you @Blossomtoes but Shakespeare is definitely the king of gender fluidity.

Mirabai · 20/06/2024 11:54

Scruffily · 20/06/2024 10:58

It wasn't really because they thought they would have difficulty getting published, but because they were concerned about the preconceptions that would affect reactions to their work if people knew they were women - especially given the nature of their work. Being a woman wasn't necessarily a barrier in itself to being published, as Jane Austen demonstrated in the previous century; her name wasn't shown on her books during her lifetime, but the author was stated to be "A Lady".

Jane Austen’s work is much more polite. And I have wondered whether she would have felt less constrained if she had written under a male pseudonym.

GerundTheBehemoth · 20/06/2024 11:47

MrsWhattery · 20/06/2024 09:09

The other thing that pisses me off about this is that it’s backwards in terms of how understanding the past - or any subject - works. (Compare the stupid “queering” of botany that Kew Gardens attempted Hmm)

if you start out with queer theory as your toolkit you can impose it on any topic in a meaningless, distorted way by picking up on any aspect of your topic that you can twist into a queer-theory-looking shape. Some plants and animals are hermaphroditic or asexual, some women from the past used male names or disguises to get ahead. That has nothing to do with queer theory but you force-team them for some sad, uninformative, politicised exhibition or publication instead of focusing on actual real information and insight that helps to make subjects like these actually come alive and helps people really understand and relate to them. It’s the reverse of good scholarship and good interpretive work.

Re Kew, the Mammal Society is doing something similar.

https://x.com/Mammal_Society/status/1799411133712867596

x.com

https://x.com/Mammal_Society/status/1799411133712867596

BIossomtoes · 20/06/2024 11:37

Wait until you hear about Marxist literacy criticism. It’ll blow your minds.

NotBadConsidering · 20/06/2024 11:33

Of course they’re “queering” the idea of the Brontes using male pseudonyms, otherwise they would have posted this at any other time of the year. Instead they posted it surrounded by rainbows and trans flags. The usual contrary posters pretended otherwise I see🙄.

PepeParapluie · 20/06/2024 11:30

KreedKafer · 20/06/2024 10:53

That isn't the implication at all. Nobody is 'queering' anyone.

Also, they did have a choice. There were other novelists published under female names at the time, and earlier (including gothic novelists who wrote books a lot more shocking, at the time, than the Brontes did). They made a conscious decision to publish with male/unisex names - and that was before they published their novels. Their first published work was their poetry.

Yes, that choice was made within in the context of the time, and their own social status and upbringing as the daughters of a middle-class clergyman. But it was still a choice, and it was a choice that related to gender norms, which is interesting for its own sake. They could, for example, have published as anonymous women (Jane Austen published her books as 'By A Lady') or with obviously male names (as George Eliot did).

It isn't dishonest to discuss this in the context of gender and identity, and the posts don't imply anything about the Brontes' sexuality. It's a perfectly valid and relevant thing to discuss and it is simply not as black and white as 'they had no choice'. I remember lectures going into this when I was studying the Brontes as part of my degree, and that was 30 years ago, so it's not a new area of interest and not one that's fuelled by recent awareness of trans issues.

Of course it’s valid to have conversations about their motivations and the constraints in which they found themselves living. And of course that it is interesting. I don’t think anyone disagrees with that.

The issue is trying to paint that discussion as one associated with the modern pride movement, which is very far removed from the considerations of the Brontes’ time.

The topics are totally unrelated. That’s not to say either is wrong or invalid, they’re just separate. And it’s so frustrating for anything and everything to be shoehorned in to pride when actually, the issues around this discussion are quite clearly ones of sex, misogyny, societal expectations of women etc and not at all to do with the modern understanding of gender identity.

Devilsmommy · 20/06/2024 11:10

biddyboo · 20/06/2024 08:07

The implication of the posts is that they chose androgynous names as they were playing around with their 'gender identity'. Not that they had no choice but to do this to stand a chance of being published (and to avoid the scandal of a woman having written about the topics they covered). It's a dishonest representation of what they were doing.

Oh FFS we all know they used pseudonyms. There was no contemplating gender identity in it at all. God I'm sick to the back teeth of all this bollocks. Is nothing safe from trans bullshit anymore🤬

Dumbo12 · 20/06/2024 11:03

The Bronté sisters were the daughters of a clergyman, living in the rural West riding of Yorkshire, at the beginning of the industrial revolution. The idea that they could write about passion, land ownership, the introduction of Mills and luddites, as women and be accepted, is quite bonkers!

Swipe left for the next trending thread