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Original poster

The (large/wellknown) org I work for just joined Stonewall

63 replies

bathofbeans · 19/06/2024 11:34

. . . and are now members of Stonewall Diversity Champions which will provide us with expertise and guidance to update our policies.

Can anyone explain to me what this will mean? What guidance will we be receiving? How could this change our organisations workplaces across England?

OP posts:
Original poster
bathofbeans · 20/06/2024 00:07

Theeyeballsinthesky · 19/06/2024 21:16

One of the things with the charity sector @bathofbeans is that trustees and senior managers often circulate around within it bringing their stonewall culture with them

so the current CEO of The Samaritans used to be CEO of the girl guides which is stonewalled to the eyeballs.

its always worth looking at your trustees to see if they have stonewall links as well

and I wouldn’t volunteer for an org on the stonewall list either

I've had a search - can't see any obvious links so far.

And another loss for the volunteer teams. I wonder how many people feel this way? I wonder if we will lose volunteers? They are our lifeblood

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Original poster
bathofbeans · 20/06/2024 00:04

Does Stonewall's objective have any relevance to the aims of the organisation?

None that I can decipher. I'd be seriously gobsmacked if they could dovetail them somehow.

I have an immediate colleague I can chat to 'off the record' that I know is also sceptical, but no-one higher up. I overheard a serious conversation a few years back where someone was saying 'there are at least 57 genders don't you know' and the other person saying 'really wow I had no idea, that's absolutely fascinating'.

Hence my username for this thread 😄

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Rightsraptor · 19/06/2024 22:13

As to costs, it's not merely what the organisation has to shell out to be bullied by Stonewall but also the time taken by the unfortunate employee who has to do all the work. That has costs attached to it.

Theeyeballsinthesky · 19/06/2024 21:16

One of the things with the charity sector @bathofbeans is that trustees and senior managers often circulate around within it bringing their stonewall culture with them

so the current CEO of The Samaritans used to be CEO of the girl guides which is stonewalled to the eyeballs.

its always worth looking at your trustees to see if they have stonewall links as well

and I wouldn’t volunteer for an org on the stonewall list either

IwantToRetire · 19/06/2024 21:14

'certainly NOT a national staff consultation'

Not sure which part of the charity sector you are in, but surely the primary purpose of the organisation, are its aims.

Does Stonewall's objective have any relevance to the aims of the organisation?

Also it isn't for the Board or HR to say you have to have an agreed set of beliefs to work there.

And law cases have made it clear that both trans and gender critical "beliefs" are equally protected so as the employers should not be putting one in front of the other.

However, suspect that the charity sector is even more captured than any other sector - sadly.

Sounds like you are being very sensible and informing yourself.

Are there any other members of staff you can talk to, and share concerns.

And yes if you are a unionised work place the union should help ... but many of them have been captured.

I would have thought the potential of reputational damage to the charity would be a good angle. So many newspaper reports about groups disaffiliating.

Original poster
bathofbeans · 19/06/2024 21:12

TheRozzers · 19/06/2024 15:00

There's a great blog by Naomi Cunningham about this. I suggest you get this in front of your employers somehow OP:

www.legalfeminist.org.uk/2021/02/01/submission-and-compliance/

I think this paragraph in particular from Naomi Cunningham's article is particularly damning and it's this side of the Stonewall interference which worries me the most:

''. . . if you are a public body, your policies and public communications will matter more widely, and some of them will be amenable to judicial review. You will be bound by the public sector equality duty at section 149 of the Equality Act, and you will generally be required to act rationally and lawfully, and not to place improper or arbitrary fetters on the manner in which you make decisions, in the performance of your public functions. Policies that misstate the law or are based on an erroneous understanding of the law may themselves be unlawful. ''

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Original poster
bathofbeans · 19/06/2024 21:08

DrSoupDragonsFriend · 19/06/2024 21:05

Whether an organisation has bought into Stonewall's or similar ideology is a definite deciding factor for me. It's also one that is affecting my decision making about where I will leave money in my will which I really need to remake.

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Wow, it's a gamechanger then.

I think the organisation I work for would definitely be severely affected by that stance. We are purely public funded and legacies are a vitally important part of that.

Oh dear. They could be in for a rough ride.

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DrSoupDragonsFriend · 19/06/2024 21:05

bathofbeans · 19/06/2024 20:39

What a shame. Good volunteers are so vital and valuable for charities.

Did you cite joining Stonewall as your reason for leaving your volunteering role?

With a large portion of volunteers in many charities being retired women, I wonder what the capacity loss is to organisations?

Would being a member of Stonewall be the decider if you chose a new charity to volunteer with?

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Whether an organisation has bought into Stonewall's or similar ideology is a definite deciding factor for me. It's also one that is affecting my decision making about where I will leave money in my will which I really need to remake.

Original poster
bathofbeans · 19/06/2024 20:39

DrSoupDragonsFriend · 19/06/2024 20:28

That's a pity. I'm not sure how the coordination between the different groups happens but it might be worth contacting the original Civil Service SEEN to see if they know of an embryonic group. The charity sector is is real need. Being captured is the main reason I quit volunteering for one of the major charities.

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What a shame. Good volunteers are so vital and valuable for charities.

Did you cite joining Stonewall as your reason for leaving your volunteering role?

With a large portion of volunteers in many charities being retired women, I wonder what the capacity loss is to organisations?

Would being a member of Stonewall be the decider if you chose a new charity to volunteer with?

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Original poster
bathofbeans · 19/06/2024 20:35

TheRozzers · 19/06/2024 15:00

There's a great blog by Naomi Cunningham about this. I suggest you get this in front of your employers somehow OP:

www.legalfeminist.org.uk/2021/02/01/submission-and-compliance/

Thanks Rozzers. I've started to read this but it's long so I'll need time to digest it.

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DrSoupDragonsFriend · 19/06/2024 20:28

bathofbeans · 19/06/2024 20:23

No unfortunately

We are charity sector.

I've just looked up SEEN and it looks really good. I'd like there to be something similar for us. It's clearly lacking and perhaps Stonewall are filling the gap . . . someone needs to close that gap!

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That's a pity. I'm not sure how the coordination between the different groups happens but it might be worth contacting the original Civil Service SEEN to see if they know of an embryonic group. The charity sector is is real need. Being captured is the main reason I quit volunteering for one of the major charities.

Original poster
bathofbeans · 19/06/2024 20:26

bathofbeans · 19/06/2024 20:19

It may have been raised and consulted on within certain 'working groups' but the joining of Stonewall was certainly a national staff consultation.

I don't feel I yet know enough about Stonewall, and the implications of being a member, to be the one that raises it. Perhaps it's best left to Sex Matters if that's their speciality.

I will start reading though!

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. . . . meant say 'certainly NOT a national staff consultation'

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Original poster
bathofbeans · 19/06/2024 20:23

DrSoupDragonsFriend · 19/06/2024 20:16

Are you in employment covered by the Sex Equality and Equity Network (SEEN) groups: Civil Service, The City (private sector particularly financial services), the police, HR, Parliament, STEM, journalism, sport, schools, the health sector, local authorities? If so, they may be able to help you find others who are also concerned in your area of work. https://seen-network.uk/other-seens/ I did hear mutterings about one being set up for the charity sector but I don't know if that has happened yet.

No unfortunately

We are charity sector.

I've just looked up SEEN and it looks really good. I'd like there to be something similar for us. It's clearly lacking and perhaps Stonewall are filling the gap . . . someone needs to close that gap!

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Original poster
bathofbeans · 19/06/2024 20:19

IwantToRetire · 19/06/2024 17:37

Was there any consultation about this, or did you all just get a memo or something?

If there was not consultation or forwarning, could you contact (HR?) and say could someone explain it to you as recently you have seen many organisations, public bodies have left the scheme, and you have read articles saying why it is inappropraite for an employer as they are supposed to support different "beliefs" equally and Stonewall doesn't.

It may have been raised and consulted on within certain 'working groups' but the joining of Stonewall was certainly a national staff consultation.

I don't feel I yet know enough about Stonewall, and the implications of being a member, to be the one that raises it. Perhaps it's best left to Sex Matters if that's their speciality.

I will start reading though!

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DrSoupDragonsFriend · 19/06/2024 20:16

Are you in employment covered by the Sex Equality and Equity Network (SEEN) groups: Civil Service, The City (private sector particularly financial services), the police, HR, Parliament, STEM, journalism, sport, schools, the health sector, local authorities? If so, they may be able to help you find others who are also concerned in your area of work. https://seen-network.uk/other-seens/ I did hear mutterings about one being set up for the charity sector but I don't know if that has happened yet.

Original poster
bathofbeans · 19/06/2024 20:15

benid · 19/06/2024 14:01

Maybe you could contact Sex Matters anonymously and ask them to contact your employer - not sure if this is possible so just a suggestion

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I've just seen on their website that they keep a list of organisations that are joining/leaving - so hopefully they will be alerted to this new organisation joining?

Or perhaps I need to email them . . .

I just don't feel at all comfortable with the Equality Act being undermined if that is the intention

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Original poster
bathofbeans · 19/06/2024 20:07

waltzingparrot · 19/06/2024 13:54

Do you feel you could email the powers that be in your organisation and ask them why they have joined now in light of the Cass report and the fact that major organisations are leaving the scheme. Just a casual question.

I really don't feel comfortable saying anything this early on. I think if it starts to affect my team and the people we work with I would definitely stand my ground and keep everyone safe.
I'm just unsure if there will be much change - or if we are just doing it to wear the t-shirt and keep everyone happy.
It's an expensive t-shirt though at £3000 a pop!

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Original poster
bathofbeans · 19/06/2024 20:04

Thelnebriati · 19/06/2024 13:19

I am concerned that the report says that Stonewall encourages employers to disregard certain aspects of the Equality Act 2010.
Surely this is unlawful?

Yes it is; part of the problem with the EA is the criteria of who can bring a case, and the expense involved. Some employers get away with a hell of a lot, because for many people its easier and more affordable to just look for a new job.
IMO the process can have parallels with dealing with sexual harassment in the workplace, or whistleblowing. In theory you are the injured party and have some legal protection but in reality things can get nasty.

If it came to it - is this the kind of thing a union would represent staff on? (and foot the bill)

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IwantToRetire · 19/06/2024 17:37

Was there any consultation about this, or did you all just get a memo or something?

If there was not consultation or forwarning, could you contact (HR?) and say could someone explain it to you as recently you have seen many organisations, public bodies have left the scheme, and you have read articles saying why it is inappropraite for an employer as they are supposed to support different "beliefs" equally and Stonewall doesn't.

PoppySeedBagelRedux · 19/06/2024 17:30

bathofbeans · 19/06/2024 12:34

I am just looking at 'Sex Matters' and their report Understanding Stonewall Risk 080721 FINAL'.

I am concerned that the report says that Stonewall encourages employers to disregard certain aspects of the Equality Act 2010.

Surely this is unlawful?

Sex Matters say they contact employers to warn them of the risks of disregarding the Equality Act - will they contact my employer?

It's probably been mentioned (I've not RTFT), but could you contact Sex Matters?

Waitwhat23 · 19/06/2024 16:47

Looking at various other FOI's, the fee seems to be currently around £3,000 a year, though one organisation I looked at had paid an additional (approx.) cost for various training courses to be delivered by Stonewall (allyship being one).

Insegnante · 19/06/2024 16:08

Rightsraptor · 19/06/2024 14:50

A lot, in terms of reputational damage to @bathofbeans' employers

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True but I meant, are they literally paying for this certification? How much? Maybe the OP could do a FOI?

TheRozzers · 19/06/2024 15:00

There's a great blog by Naomi Cunningham about this. I suggest you get this in front of your employers somehow OP:

www.legalfeminist.org.uk/2021/02/01/submission-and-compliance/

Rightsraptor · 19/06/2024 14:50

Insegnante · 19/06/2024 14:45

I wonder how much it costs?

A lot, in terms of reputational damage to @bathofbeans' employers

Insegnante · 19/06/2024 14:45

I wonder how much it costs?

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