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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Did Keir Starmer just say

317 replies

Helpuschoose · 18/06/2024 09:31

To Nick Ferrari on LBC that transwomen with a GRC will not be allowed in female single-sex spaces? It sounded like it. Is this a clear move or does it still leave wriggle-room? I’m not sure.

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duc748 · 19/06/2024 01:17

I'm expecting spoilt ballots to be at an all-time high.

RedToothBrush · 19/06/2024 00:21

Going back to Blair's intervention, this is my take on it.

Its been playing on my mind. There's more to this than meets the eye.

Polling is showing that the gender/sex issue is a low priority. Its a 'niche' subject in the sense that voters have a lot of other issues they consider more important.

HOWEVER

I think I would be willing to bet, they are also finding something else with it: whilst its not a priority issue it IS an issue connected with political trust and public confidence in Labour and it potentially is a driver for apathy in voters.

Therefore it may be paradoxically that Yes its true that its not an important issue in terms of priorities, but Yes its also a crucial issue in ensuring votes and motivating voters to an extent that does not reflect its priority - because of this link with fence sitting / trust in Starmer.

Its not so much about the issue itself - its about what it represents - the domination of the Authoritarian Left over the Centrist parts of the party (Remember Starmer needs to win those votes back from people who have voted conservative at the last couple of elections - these are more likely to be slightly more socially conservative voters). People ultimately bottled it, from voting for Corbyn previously remember.

They are nervous voters, who are planning to vote Labour, purely to punish the Torys NOT because they are particularly pro-Labour. Lets call them Lukewarm Labourites. Its a REALLY fragile vote that could just not turn out.

Being told that you must call a man a woman is potentially something thats almost spooking voters more than perhaps its priority would suggest it should, because the wider British electorate is more socially conservative and more liberal rather than authoritarian than people give credit for. They might be willing to switch votes, but this type of identity politics perhaps makes them nervous and waiver over voting. Its a major turnoff. Its about this dislike for the culture war much more generally (reminder - these are centrists). And they have a desire to heal this rift in our society. (Note the big noise about ending the culture war immediately the other day).

The fact that Blair made a comment - almost to test the water without damaging Labour's electoral chances - allowed Labour to see how this went down. A political balloon. Since it didn't attract a level of abuse, that some might expect, its perhaps appearing as a 'safer' position than strategists had previously though. This means Starmer suddenly feels he can also step into this space too given Blair has paved the way for him.

I've just been watching 'The Rest is Politics' by Rory Stewart and Alastair Campbell tonight. Campbell raised the point that what he's hearing is a HUGE amount of apathy, a lack of general interest in this election and many people saying they think that Labour have it sown up so they either don't intend to vote or are voting for someone else as a form of protest. Its almost as if its someone elses responsibility to ensure Labour are elected.

I think this is a REALLY important factor. This makes the election a LOT more voliatile and unpredictable than perhaps polling suggests. A low turnout has to be the expectation. People who are politically switched on are much more likely to vote than those who aren't. So if they do care about this issue, they are voters who are more likely to vote than other voters as they are people who are more politically switched on and not only that, but perhaps more influential with their more apathetic peers.

And genuinely this is the first election ever, where I have been deliberately avoiding watching the news. Its the first election I've made a point of NOT watching the leaders debates. Its frankly out of character for me. I bet those viewing figures are really low.

So I'm going to go out on a limb here and say theres a certain level of nervousness going on thats not proportional to where Labour are polling.

I still think they will win by a country mile, but yeah I also don't think its as clear cut as it should be either.

Datun · 18/06/2024 23:50

Clavinova · 18/06/2024 23:07

It's ok - I've found it thanks. You were correct, Starmer skipped the word 'sex' and said 'single spaces', followed by 'safe spaces' at that point. The Times have misquoted him - perhaps they haven't picked up on his word games over this issue and filled in the missing word for him.

If it's deliberate, does he really think people won't notice?

The word sex is pivotal in so many different strands of this issue, no one is going to ignore it if he avoids saying it.

DrNickedMaCorpus · 18/06/2024 23:10

Absolutely pathetic. At least lie with your whole chest, Starmer!

DrNickedMaCorpus · 18/06/2024 23:09

Clavinova · 18/06/2024 23:07

It's ok - I've found it thanks. You were correct, Starmer skipped the word 'sex' and said 'single spaces', followed by 'safe spaces' at that point. The Times have misquoted him - perhaps they haven't picked up on his word games over this issue and filled in the missing word for him.

Does he think if he says the phrase 'single sex spaces' but omits the word sex he can fudge it? Did he have his fingers crossed behind his back?

ScrollingLeaves · 18/06/2024 23:08

RedToothBrush · 18/06/2024 22:43

I was banging on about it being one of the next big political fracture point way back in 2017/8.

That was when women started getting kicked out of or left political parties as a direct result of chanting TWAW.

It wasn't that hard to work out if you were paying attention and had any concept of what the British Public are like.

The jaw dropping thing is that so few people saw the iceberg and decided to shout 'full steam ahead' instead.

The jaw dropping thing is that so few people saw the iceberg and decided to shout 'full steam ahead' instead.

“Datun · Today 22:20”
“I seem to remember at least four years ago, maybe more, he told labour to keep away from the trans issue. Don't go down that road.”

“He could totally see the writing on the wall.”

It was Tony Blair who set the course of the Titanic to crash into the iceberg when he re-set the navigation dial to say North was South.

Clavinova · 18/06/2024 23:07

DrNickedMaCorpus · 18/06/2024 22:33

If that was my transcript I do recommend checking the footage! I was in a big hurry. However I seem to recall he skipped the word 'sex' ... would have to check.

It's ok - I've found it thanks. You were correct, Starmer skipped the word 'sex' and said 'single spaces', followed by 'safe spaces' at that point. The Times have misquoted him - perhaps they haven't picked up on his word games over this issue and filled in the missing word for him.

Gymnopedie · 18/06/2024 23:00

And will this side ward be part of a women's ward or a men's?

RedToothBrush · 18/06/2024 22:43

Datun · 18/06/2024 22:20

I seem to remember at least four years ago, maybe more, he told labour to keep away from the trans issue. Don't go down that road.

He could totally see the writing on the wall.

I was banging on about it being one of the next big political fracture point way back in 2017/8.

That was when women started getting kicked out of or left political parties as a direct result of chanting TWAW.

It wasn't that hard to work out if you were paying attention and had any concept of what the British Public are like.

The jaw dropping thing is that so few people saw the iceberg and decided to shout 'full steam ahead' instead.

DrNickedMaCorpus · 18/06/2024 22:33

Clavinova · 18/06/2024 21:06

Has Starmer been misquoted by The Times?

In the screenshot he is quoted as saying; "I think we should protect single-sex spaces for women and girls."

Up thread he is quoted as saying; "I [ ] think we should protect single spaces for women and girls" - (he said single spaces, not single-sex spaces?)

If that was my transcript I do recommend checking the footage! I was in a big hurry. However I seem to recall he skipped the word 'sex' ... would have to check.

Datun · 18/06/2024 22:20

ResisterRex · 18/06/2024 21:17

Intriguing thought…because it is odd that Blair emerged to say anything at all really. Especially on this.

I seem to remember at least four years ago, maybe more, he told labour to keep away from the trans issue. Don't go down that road.

He could totally see the writing on the wall.

RedToothBrush · 18/06/2024 21:40

ResisterRex · 18/06/2024 21:17

Intriguing thought…because it is odd that Blair emerged to say anything at all really. Especially on this.

Blair is still taken seriously in a way that other politicians aren't.

Yes I agree, it's significant that he's said that.

Popcorn time.

ResisterRex · 18/06/2024 21:17

RedToothBrush · 18/06/2024 20:02

Those polls and focus group findings must be VERY interesting indeed...

Intriguing thought…because it is odd that Blair emerged to say anything at all really. Especially on this.

Clavinova · 18/06/2024 21:06

Helpuschoose · 18/06/2024 11:07

His comments aren’t getting much traction online amongst all the other noise which is deemed so much more important. But The Times have at least referenced it in their rolling coverage.

Has Starmer been misquoted by The Times?

In the screenshot he is quoted as saying; "I think we should protect single-sex spaces for women and girls."

Up thread he is quoted as saying; "I [ ] think we should protect single spaces for women and girls" - (he said single spaces, not single-sex spaces?)

Clavinova · 18/06/2024 20:43

crabbyoldbat · 18/06/2024 16:28

On Women's Hour this morning, Labour Party Chair and Shadow Secretary for Women and Equalities Anneliese Dodds said: Sex and gender are different, sex is protected under the EA, and exceptions can be made, but this probably could be made clearer/more well known/enforced. There should be appropriate single-sex spaces.

So it sounds to me like they've decided on their position and are following it.

Sarah Jones - Labour's Shadow Minister for Industry and Decarbonisation is listed on the schedule for today.

RedToothBrush · 18/06/2024 20:02

cavalier · 18/06/2024 19:24

He’s mr flip flop and I would never trust him. He only said it because Blair said it all. He’s unbelievable really 🤔

Those polls and focus group findings must be VERY interesting indeed...

cavalier · 18/06/2024 19:24

He’s mr flip flop and I would never trust him. He only said it because Blair said it all. He’s unbelievable really 🤔

illinivich · 18/06/2024 18:22

Signalbox · 18/06/2024 18:08

This is what I’m wondering. Annex B wasn’t “a loss of control”. It was a very deliberate policy decision that was written into the NNS constitution.

Someone wasnt paying attention, and an annex appeared.

Signalbox · 18/06/2024 18:08

Chersfrozenface · 18/06/2024 18:01

Does he even know about Annex B?

This is what I’m wondering. Annex B wasn’t “a loss of control”. It was a very deliberate policy decision that was written into the NNS constitution.

Signalbox · 18/06/2024 18:07

IwantToRetire · 18/06/2024 17:42

Sorry dont have time to read whole thread just now but not sure why anyone is surprised by what KS said.

He has been working in the legal services for years.

Under the EA SSE a man with a GRC saying they are a woman can be excluded.

Everybody know that. But we also know that Stonewall etc., have tried to say the opposite.

Also that not as many organisations as could, have bothered to implement the SSE.

How many times does this have to be said??!!

I think more troubling is the comment about hopsital wards.

Irrespective of intention, everyone knows that hospitals do no have the capacity to implement single sex services, let alone side rooms.

What a load of political bullshit.

I’m surprised because current NHS policy doesn’t make use of the SSE. Current policy is that any man who wishes it should be accommodated on a female ward. To reverse this Starmer will need to actively change the NHS constitution and scrap Annex B which is what allows for men to be accommodated according to their presentation or womanly feelings.

illinivich · 18/06/2024 18:02

RedToothBrush · 18/06/2024 17:27

Hmmm the only issue is ...

...what is gender?

Define gender without using a bunch of sexist tropes.

And this is where anyone who talks about this really needs to have a hard think.

I agree gender is meaningless, but we seem to have to move at the pace of the dimmest politician in the country.

They can't chuckle patronisingly and say gender isnt sex, then give men with gender a certificate saying they are now female and a shiny new female birth certificate. That is confusing sex and gender.

To continue giving out GRC , they need to define gender. I think politicans have always imagined safe (really female) spaces and gendered spaces. Thats why men with gender need id to get them into gendered situations.

I wonder if any politicians would dare to say exactly what a gendered space is, and why women would want to be there with eddie izzard?

theilltemperedclavecinist · 18/06/2024 18:01

IwantToRetire · 18/06/2024 17:42

Sorry dont have time to read whole thread just now but not sure why anyone is surprised by what KS said.

He has been working in the legal services for years.

Under the EA SSE a man with a GRC saying they are a woman can be excluded.

Everybody know that. But we also know that Stonewall etc., have tried to say the opposite.

Also that not as many organisations as could, have bothered to implement the SSE.

How many times does this have to be said??!!

I think more troubling is the comment about hopsital wards.

Irrespective of intention, everyone knows that hospitals do no have the capacity to implement single sex services, let alone side rooms.

What a load of political bullshit.

Stonewall's position is that a GRC holder can only be excluded from a single-sex space in order to fulfil a legitimate and proportionate aim (partly true) and that this test sets an insuperably high bar for most situations (not true).

By saying that GRC holders should be excluded from women's wards, KS is effectively rendering an instant legal opinion that this situation passes the LAPA test. Which has implications for other comparable situations.

So this is, I think, new and welcome. They still need to do something about it, but are starting from a logical place at least.

Chersfrozenface · 18/06/2024 18:01

Signalbox · 18/06/2024 17:55

Um - or indeed in our hospitals - it's actually NHS policy for wards to be single sex and er the only reason that isn't routinely the case now is because the government's lost control of our hospitals but that is the policy and we want to reinforce and protect that"

Does this mean he is committed to getting rid of Annex B I wonder?

Does he even know about Annex B?

RedToothBrush · 18/06/2024 18:00

Signalbox · 18/06/2024 17:55

Um - or indeed in our hospitals - it's actually NHS policy for wards to be single sex and er the only reason that isn't routinely the case now is because the government's lost control of our hospitals but that is the policy and we want to reinforce and protect that"

Does this mean he is committed to getting rid of Annex B I wonder?

Steady now. Watch those expectations.

RedToothBrush · 18/06/2024 17:59

And this is why I say that satisfaction ratings for Starmer will start high due to all the anticipation and then drop like a stone...