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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Did Keir Starmer just say

317 replies

Helpuschoose · 18/06/2024 09:31

To Nick Ferrari on LBC that transwomen with a GRC will not be allowed in female single-sex spaces? It sounded like it. Is this a clear move or does it still leave wriggle-room? I’m not sure.

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ScrollingLeaves · 19/06/2024 18:31

blackcherryconserve · 19/06/2024 16:29

I can't find reference to this.

The reference is modernise, simplify and reform’ Gender Recognition Act.

One GP, not two, no expert panel, no spousal protection kept. Much easier to get would mean many more given out. The outrageous, virtually covert, GR Act ( allowing a lie to have legal weight) was only passed on the basis that there would be so very few that it wouldn’t make any difference to anyone.

The Labour Women’s declaration has written well on the spousal clause.

There have been quite a few discussions on threads/posts here about this apparently benign simplification.

The LP are also committed to the Ban Conversion Therapy
Bill with T included, though there is no clarity about what conversion therapy for trans actually is or where it is happening; transing itself can be conversion ‘therapy’ of potentially gay people; and not simply affirming or offering any psychological guidance and exploration ( re, autism, homosexuality, being taken into care, sexual abuse, trauma) could possibly leave a counsellor or parents open to accusations of conversion. Meanwhile evidence is that affirmation without question is wrong.

I don’t think there is any definite manifesto.

Citrusandginger · 19/06/2024 16:58

Thing is they dare not drop the hackneyed Ming vase by admitting that humans can't change sex, because that would cause a tantrum on Twitter.

But if they honestly admitted that they are going to enable self-ID and told people the full consequences of that, that poll lead could shrink fast.

Personally, I have resigned myself to getting rid of the Tories and starting over with the fight against TRA/MRA. I think it is quite likely that a lot of this stuff will be on the back burner while they tackle the economic problems and the dire state of public services. I can only hope that the media will be all over it once they do start to move it forward, and I think there may be some room for optimism. The era of no debate is over and there are enough journalists that won't pull their punches that it will be far harder to slip anything through quietly. I hope so anyway.

blackcherryconserve · 19/06/2024 16:29

ResisterRex · 18/06/2024 09:43

Their manifesto is clear. They'll bring in self-ID by any means they can. They've told us. Believe them.

I can't find reference to this.

EasternStandard · 19/06/2024 16:26

It’s still waffle with a side order of stop talking about it - the “stopping culture wars” part from another thread

I thought the manifesto was meant to clear up which spaces would be single sex and how men with GRC would be kept out

Did he decide yet?

RedToothBrush · 19/06/2024 14:38

And yes I do talk to completely random people in the pub regularly!

It is often very enlightening.

RedToothBrush · 19/06/2024 14:30

Pub Conversation was very interesting.

Neither of the two former candidates would stand for election again - because they disliked politicians - through having stood for election before 😅. Both thought it all bullshit. They cared enough to stand for election, but wouldn't repeat it. Neither are still members of a party. Both are in their 40s. The disillusionment was palapable.

One has heard stuff from a source within Labour about a plan wanting to get in Starmer and then kick him out and replace with Rayner. This of course could be a load of bollocks or over stating the power within Labour HOWEVER, i do trust this person and they have no motivation to be just saying this for any other party's benefit. They don't think it will happen but do this that its reflective of internal disquiet about Starmer. And it does tally with public fears of this - so it could be reflective of this fear even if its a pile of bullshit. If it is true, it speaks of the shit yet to come and it would explain mealy mouthed stuff from Starmer as he's under more pressure than he would like to admit.

Either way, concern and rumblings.

This is not normal.

RedToothBrush · 19/06/2024 14:13

ScrollingLeaves · 19/06/2024 14:00

“But when asked whether Sir Tony was right, Sir Keir told The Telegraph: “Yes, Tony’s right about that. He put it very well. I saw it reported, I’m not quite sure where he said it. But I agree with him on that.”

He is doing what Rishi did in 2022 after Johnson told MPs that “we must recognise when people want to make a transition in their lives that they should be treated with the maximum possible generosity and respect” but added “when it comes to distinguishing between man and woman, the basic facts of biology remain overwhelmingly important” ……..

when Rishi was asked what he thought, he did not dare say, so he just kept saying he agreed with the Prime Minister.

This is KS hiding behind Tony Blair to my mind, and I don’t like it.

But it is still a good thing he said what he did about “That”.

That thing with no name.

Definitely a point. And yes I agree.

DrNickedMaCorpus · 19/06/2024 14:06

Like this?

Sarah Silverman Eww GIF by HULU
duc748 · 19/06/2024 14:05

That thing with no name

There must be a gif for that! A sort of shudder of distaste, like you just swallowed something bitter. 😀

ScrollingLeaves · 19/06/2024 14:00

“But when asked whether Sir Tony was right, Sir Keir told The Telegraph: “Yes, Tony’s right about that. He put it very well. I saw it reported, I’m not quite sure where he said it. But I agree with him on that.”

He is doing what Rishi did in 2022 after Johnson told MPs that “we must recognise when people want to make a transition in their lives that they should be treated with the maximum possible generosity and respect” but added “when it comes to distinguishing between man and woman, the basic facts of biology remain overwhelmingly important” ……..

when Rishi was asked what he thought, he did not dare say, so he just kept saying he agreed with the Prime Minister.

This is KS hiding behind Tony Blair to my mind, and I don’t like it.

But it is still a good thing he said what he did about “That”.

That thing with no name.

RedToothBrush · 19/06/2024 13:47

Ok just been in the pub with two people who have stood for parliament before (two different parties).
Neither know who to vote for. Neither have watched parliamentary debates.
Both expressed concern about the hard left and the Labour domestic bust up that's not been resolved yet.

Absolutely fascinating and I really do think this is a issue / concern that's 'out there' - certainly in particular constituencies and it's going to have at least a marginal effect on the ultimate result.

Signalbox · 19/06/2024 13:38

duc748 · 19/06/2024 13:23

Isn't it about time someone nailed him on this? It's been remarked on for some that KS uses the formulation 'safe spaces' rather than 'single-sex spaces'. So, why is that, Sir Keir?

Yes. He really needs to explain. Why would a lawyer use the meaningless term “safe spaces” when the exceptions in the EA are to allow for “single-sex” provision?

Datun · 19/06/2024 13:34

duc748 · 19/06/2024 13:23

Isn't it about time someone nailed him on this? It's been remarked on for some that KS uses the formulation 'safe spaces' rather than 'single-sex spaces'. So, why is that, Sir Keir?

Someone is bound to ask, as soon as they get wind of the fudging.

if he is genuinely avoiding it, what the hell is that conversation going to look like?

Yes I said safe not single sex because...

duc748 · 19/06/2024 13:23

Isn't it about time someone nailed him on this? It's been remarked on for some that KS uses the formulation 'safe spaces' rather than 'single-sex spaces'. So, why is that, Sir Keir?

Signalbox · 19/06/2024 13:11

I've been watching various hustings Q&As and when questions are asked in relating to women's rights to single-sex provision Labour and Lib Dem candidates often seem to be answering the question using the term "safe spaces" in lieu of single-sex. They then go on to say that TW should also be entitled to use those "safe spaces".

So KS's terminology of "safe spaces" is definitely catching on and when he promises to support "safe spaces" for women he does so knowing that his party understand this as being inclusive of TW and that it is not the same thing as promising to support "single-sex" spaces.

https://www.youtube.com/live/M3GazKZqc7E?si=DlCdQ3YgfFZcJYoh&t=4729

Before you continue to YouTube

https://www.youtube.com/live/M3GazKZqc7E?si=DlCdQ3YgfFZcJYoh&t=4729

CorruptedCauldron · 19/06/2024 09:50

Keir agrees with Tony Blair that men have a penis, women have a vagina.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/starmer-blair-is-right-that-a-woman-has-a-vagina-and-a-man-has-a-penis/ar-BB1oryFO

Funny how it used to be “not right” in Keir’s eyes to say that only women have a cervix. Could it be because a silly little WOMAN made such a controversial assertion? Now a man Keir truly respects - the lovely warmongering grinning Tone - says the same thing as a Rosie Duffield, more or less, and is praised for his clarity.

MSN

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/starmer-blair-is-right-that-a-woman-has-a-vagina-and-a-man-has-a-penis/ar-BB1oryFO

makeanddo · 19/06/2024 09:08

What people seem to missing here is that NHS trusts already let transwomen pick which ward they want to go on. Mine has this clearly stated in documents, so men are on women's wards if they want to be.

Keir and the Labour Party don't care - they'll just parrot that the safeguards are in once and people should follow them. Meanwhile your elderly Mum is in a ward with a man who says they are a woman. I do work day if transmen are put in men's wards. I assume if it's a gynae problem theoretically there wouldn't be any men.

Self id is coming in, it's going to be a rough ride.

TWETMIRF · 19/06/2024 08:56

If Labour bring the voting age down to 16, what are Scotland going to do to be different and prove they're better? 14?

Datun · 19/06/2024 08:54

Presumably that’s why Labour want to get 16 yo voting.

I mean, do they really think people aren't going to see through this?

Any bloody parent in the country is going to think this is mad or totally cynical, or both.

Signalbox · 19/06/2024 08:33

RedToothBrush · 19/06/2024 00:21

Going back to Blair's intervention, this is my take on it.

Its been playing on my mind. There's more to this than meets the eye.

Polling is showing that the gender/sex issue is a low priority. Its a 'niche' subject in the sense that voters have a lot of other issues they consider more important.

HOWEVER

I think I would be willing to bet, they are also finding something else with it: whilst its not a priority issue it IS an issue connected with political trust and public confidence in Labour and it potentially is a driver for apathy in voters.

Therefore it may be paradoxically that Yes its true that its not an important issue in terms of priorities, but Yes its also a crucial issue in ensuring votes and motivating voters to an extent that does not reflect its priority - because of this link with fence sitting / trust in Starmer.

Its not so much about the issue itself - its about what it represents - the domination of the Authoritarian Left over the Centrist parts of the party (Remember Starmer needs to win those votes back from people who have voted conservative at the last couple of elections - these are more likely to be slightly more socially conservative voters). People ultimately bottled it, from voting for Corbyn previously remember.

They are nervous voters, who are planning to vote Labour, purely to punish the Torys NOT because they are particularly pro-Labour. Lets call them Lukewarm Labourites. Its a REALLY fragile vote that could just not turn out.

Being told that you must call a man a woman is potentially something thats almost spooking voters more than perhaps its priority would suggest it should, because the wider British electorate is more socially conservative and more liberal rather than authoritarian than people give credit for. They might be willing to switch votes, but this type of identity politics perhaps makes them nervous and waiver over voting. Its a major turnoff. Its about this dislike for the culture war much more generally (reminder - these are centrists). And they have a desire to heal this rift in our society. (Note the big noise about ending the culture war immediately the other day).

The fact that Blair made a comment - almost to test the water without damaging Labour's electoral chances - allowed Labour to see how this went down. A political balloon. Since it didn't attract a level of abuse, that some might expect, its perhaps appearing as a 'safer' position than strategists had previously though. This means Starmer suddenly feels he can also step into this space too given Blair has paved the way for him.

I've just been watching 'The Rest is Politics' by Rory Stewart and Alastair Campbell tonight. Campbell raised the point that what he's hearing is a HUGE amount of apathy, a lack of general interest in this election and many people saying they think that Labour have it sown up so they either don't intend to vote or are voting for someone else as a form of protest. Its almost as if its someone elses responsibility to ensure Labour are elected.

I think this is a REALLY important factor. This makes the election a LOT more voliatile and unpredictable than perhaps polling suggests. A low turnout has to be the expectation. People who are politically switched on are much more likely to vote than those who aren't. So if they do care about this issue, they are voters who are more likely to vote than other voters as they are people who are more politically switched on and not only that, but perhaps more influential with their more apathetic peers.

And genuinely this is the first election ever, where I have been deliberately avoiding watching the news. Its the first election I've made a point of NOT watching the leaders debates. Its frankly out of character for me. I bet those viewing figures are really low.

So I'm going to go out on a limb here and say theres a certain level of nervousness going on thats not proportional to where Labour are polling.

I still think they will win by a country mile, but yeah I also don't think its as clear cut as it should be either.

Yes I agree with a lot of this.

Labour are at risk of becoming the “loony left” again they insist on imposing trans ideology and hate crime legislation that criminalises people for pointing out the bleeding obvious. This is unlikely to prevent them winning the next election but it may hasten their demise. We only have to look at Scotland and the SNP to see how much reputational harm it can do. Presumably that’s why Labour want to get 16 yo voting. Freshly brainwashed school children are much more likely to keep voting for policy based on ID politics because it appeals to their black and white, good v bad way of thinking (not all children before I’m accused of stereotyping)

teawamutu · 19/06/2024 08:17

I do wonder - even if Starmer isn't interested in this issue/is borderline captured, is this now a proxy party control issue?

If there's one thing we can see he believes in, it's discipline. And the Momentum faction - your Whittomes, your Russell-Moyles - have TWAW as a key article of faith.

ResisterRex · 19/06/2024 07:07

Thank you Red. I remember reading Labour's own analysis of why they lost in 2019. I remember from here, that women had started leaving the party (the bigoted kind who didn't believe women had penises 🤔). The women that did all the local drudgery like leafleting and refreshments for volunteers, but got told to shut up etc.

Anyway, "that issue" wasn't even in their analysis. If there's one thing Cummings did well, it was polling and focus groups. He listened to what people thought and steered the Tories towards those areas. I doubt any of the major parties have someone telling them hard truths and making them face it. But maybe there is someone high up at Labour joining some dots.

The turnout is going to be interesting for sure.

teawamutu · 19/06/2024 06:43

Brilliant post, Red. As ever, the most interesting analysis is found on Mumsnet.

dunBle · 19/06/2024 03:41

@redtoothbrush Yep, the problem with the polling is that they generally tend to exclude the "don't knows", so if they are a bigger proportion than usual that's going to increase the margin of error on any predictions. I'm not surprised the party may be feeling a bit twitchy about getting the vote out.