Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Did Keir Starmer just say

317 replies

Helpuschoose · 18/06/2024 09:31

To Nick Ferrari on LBC that transwomen with a GRC will not be allowed in female single-sex spaces? It sounded like it. Is this a clear move or does it still leave wriggle-room? I’m not sure.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
12
NoBinturongsHereMate · 22/06/2024 15:20

This is the front page today on the paper copy.

duc748 · 22/06/2024 11:11

JKR nails it there, and captures the view on many posters here I'm sure. It's certainly mine; agree with every word.

DameMaud · 22/06/2024 09:52

Thank you muchly @Imnobody4

Imnobody4 · 22/06/2024 09:46

DameMaud · 22/06/2024 00:32

I can't find the clip from BBCQT where Keir Starmer had a woman's question about Rosie Duffield and responded appallingly.
Would much appreciate anyone who can re-link.please.

There you go.
https://twitter.com/Sorelle_Arduino/status/1803895987255079017?t=blcDvb96Zy5_pfeTX3GeGA&s=19

x.com

https://twitter.com/Sorelle_Arduino/status/1803895987255079017?s=19&t=blcDvb96Zy5_pfeTX3GeGA

Sloejelly · 22/06/2024 09:28

Definitely not voting Labour here - though this is as much due to knowledge and experience of the candidate more broadly. Even if I was won over by Labour’s national policies (and generally I do think we need changes of government, any party in power too long is a bad thing) I could not vote for the local Labour candidate.

Bodeganights · 22/06/2024 06:54

zibzibara · 21/06/2024 12:26

I remember Starmer saying in an interview this year that he has two sons, but previously he's said he has a daughter and a son. So this could be why he's biased on this topic.

Even if true and I think it's been found to not be true, this doesn't show starmer as leadership/prime minister material.

Is he going to swing or flip flop cos his kids said something different to mainstream yesterday?

Do we run countries for the purpose of all inhabitants or just his children?

Bodeganights · 22/06/2024 06:40

Citrusandginger · 19/06/2024 16:58

Thing is they dare not drop the hackneyed Ming vase by admitting that humans can't change sex, because that would cause a tantrum on Twitter.

But if they honestly admitted that they are going to enable self-ID and told people the full consequences of that, that poll lead could shrink fast.

Personally, I have resigned myself to getting rid of the Tories and starting over with the fight against TRA/MRA. I think it is quite likely that a lot of this stuff will be on the back burner while they tackle the economic problems and the dire state of public services. I can only hope that the media will be all over it once they do start to move it forward, and I think there may be some room for optimism. The era of no debate is over and there are enough journalists that won't pull their punches that it will be far harder to slip anything through quietly. I hope so anyway.

I see your optimism, I like your optimism. I dont share it.

I dont know how I'm voting, except not labour.

I have been banging on about this subject for many years, I dont have the capacity to basically start again.

I have no hopes for the media, they've done next to nothing since 2003, I doubt that will improve much.

I also doubt this will be back burner, it's free for the government, wont take much time to sort and is a immediate 'win' add in blue hairs making an almighty fuss and I guarantee itll be done within a month.

They wont be sorting other stuff out, they already said they wont change anything the torys already have in place. Spending will be the same.

dunBle · 22/06/2024 05:12

RedToothBrush · 21/06/2024 22:38

It's coming up in focus groups because potential Blair era Labour supporters moved to the Lib Dems in 2010 and then the Cons in 2015.

Labour needs the swing in this group to win. These are voters with a proven track record for turn out.

The left wing, youth vote is much more unreliable.

BUT

This group is worried about the left wing authoritarian Corbynite section of the party. In 2015 this group cost Labour the election because ultimately they couldn't vote for Corbyn. That don't trust the left wing of Labour.

The subject isn't about trans. It's about the direction and power within Labour itself.

That's why Blair was wheeled out.

Wasn't it Miliband in 2015? That was the election where Cameron promised the Brexit referendum. Corbyn took the leadership after that, and stood in 2017 and 2019

DameMaud · 22/06/2024 00:32

I can't find the clip from BBCQT where Keir Starmer had a woman's question about Rosie Duffield and responded appallingly.
Would much appreciate anyone who can re-link.please.

RedToothBrush · 21/06/2024 23:37

duc748 · 21/06/2024 22:48

But surely the left wing of Labour are weaker now than they've been for decades? Whether you think that's a good thing is a matter of opinion, but I don't think the movers and shakers in the Labour Party see them as a realistic threat. But of course, it's always good to keep a bogeyman handy. The volatile youth vote is a big worry for Labour. Well, for all parties, but especially for Labour, generally expected to do best there.

This is irrelevant.

It's a trust thing.

There is still fear that the 'woke stuff' is dominating even now that's the left and the right is too cowardly to turn around and say no to it.

The fact that the right are quite happy to not see the problem with it, is an even worse scenario.

NoBinturongsHereMate · 21/06/2024 23:17

Imagine if you really wanted to vote for a party but you knew they were Flat Earthers. How can you trust them with anything if they deny basic scientific truth?

Exactly. Even if I could overlook thr sexism, and willingness to ignore the needs of half the population, we're still left the problem of prioritising lobbying over reality.

If they will completely ignore facts and evidence on one issue, there is nothing to stop them doing the same with any other issue on the say so of whatever bonkers pressure group gets their ear.

duc748 · 21/06/2024 22:48

But surely the left wing of Labour are weaker now than they've been for decades? Whether you think that's a good thing is a matter of opinion, but I don't think the movers and shakers in the Labour Party see them as a realistic threat. But of course, it's always good to keep a bogeyman handy. The volatile youth vote is a big worry for Labour. Well, for all parties, but especially for Labour, generally expected to do best there.

teawamutu · 21/06/2024 22:47

RedToothBrush · 21/06/2024 22:38

It's coming up in focus groups because potential Blair era Labour supporters moved to the Lib Dems in 2010 and then the Cons in 2015.

Labour needs the swing in this group to win. These are voters with a proven track record for turn out.

The left wing, youth vote is much more unreliable.

BUT

This group is worried about the left wing authoritarian Corbynite section of the party. In 2015 this group cost Labour the election because ultimately they couldn't vote for Corbyn. That don't trust the left wing of Labour.

The subject isn't about trans. It's about the direction and power within Labour itself.

That's why Blair was wheeled out.

Makes a lot of sense - and that's encouraging.

It's unbelievably fucking annoying that women's rights alone aren't considered important - but if they're symptomatic of a wider issue (as we've been saying ALL ALONG in our shrill incomprehensible little lady voices) we might just get somewhere.

RedToothBrush · 21/06/2024 22:38

ResisterRex · 21/06/2024 16:11

Interesting...maybe the focus groups are discussing this after all. Still don't trust them on this issue - given what is written down in the manifesto:

www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2024/jun/21/uk-general-election-live-updates-tories-labour-bets-gambling-rules-rishi-sunak

"Starmer says he would not let SNP government hold 2nd independence referendum, or lift veto on its gender ID bill
...
Starmer also confirmed that he will not reverse the section 35 order blocking Holyrood’s gender recognition bill, which was imposed by the Tories. He said:
There will be no change of position on that and I think there’s a lot to learn on gender self-ID from the way it’s been dealt with in Scotland, which is why we’ve got a different proposition in our manifesto.
Referring to the Scottish government’s judicial review of that order, which failed, Sarwar said: “The court has made it very clear that the law as it currently stands doesn’t comply with the Equality Act and the primacy of the Equality Act is very important.”"

It's coming up in focus groups because potential Blair era Labour supporters moved to the Lib Dems in 2010 and then the Cons in 2015.

Labour needs the swing in this group to win. These are voters with a proven track record for turn out.

The left wing, youth vote is much more unreliable.

BUT

This group is worried about the left wing authoritarian Corbynite section of the party. In 2015 this group cost Labour the election because ultimately they couldn't vote for Corbyn. That don't trust the left wing of Labour.

The subject isn't about trans. It's about the direction and power within Labour itself.

That's why Blair was wheeled out.

RedToothBrush · 21/06/2024 22:15

UtopiaPlanitia · 21/06/2024 12:54

Excellent tweet from Victoria Smith on the framing of women’s rights as a 'toxic debate':

https://x.com/glosswitch/status/1803908967975788901

'The whole "toxic trans debate" thing is self-styled 'kind, reasonable' people getting angry with women for putting them in a difficult position. They know the women are right and being treated horribly but it's too politically inconvenient, so the women are 'toxic''

Edited

I'm am fairly sure Wes Streeting only started to get It because gay men started to raise concerns.

There's a theme about women speaking up and being ignored.

CorruptedCauldron · 21/06/2024 18:13

It’s infuriating that there’s so many incredibly important issues that need to be dealt with but all the left wing parties (bar the Communists) don’t seem to know what a woman is and therefore can’t protect women’s rights. We shouldn’t have to deal with this crap. Imagine if you really wanted to vote for a party but you knew they were Flat Earthers. How can you trust them with anything if they deny basic scientific truth?

whiteroseredrose · 21/06/2024 17:24

Sorry. Didn't mean to hit send yet but I'm in knots about this election. I'm so concerned about the environment and don't trust the Conservatives, but Labour and Greens keep putting me off.

whiteroseredrose · 21/06/2024 17:22

Starmer says he would not let SNP hold new independence referendum or lift veto on gender recognition bill – UK election live

ResisterRex · 21/06/2024 16:11

Interesting...maybe the focus groups are discussing this after all. Still don't trust them on this issue - given what is written down in the manifesto:

www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2024/jun/21/uk-general-election-live-updates-tories-labour-bets-gambling-rules-rishi-sunak

"Starmer says he would not let SNP government hold 2nd independence referendum, or lift veto on its gender ID bill
...
Starmer also confirmed that he will not reverse the section 35 order blocking Holyrood’s gender recognition bill, which was imposed by the Tories. He said:
There will be no change of position on that and I think there’s a lot to learn on gender self-ID from the way it’s been dealt with in Scotland, which is why we’ve got a different proposition in our manifesto.
Referring to the Scottish government’s judicial review of that order, which failed, Sarwar said: “The court has made it very clear that the law as it currently stands doesn’t comply with the Equality Act and the primacy of the Equality Act is very important.”"

Greaterorlesser · 21/06/2024 15:11

I think that whilst Corbyn was (in my opinion) an awful choice for the Labour Party at least he wasn’t shy about saying exactly what he thought, and didn’t care if people didn’t agree with him. I’ve absolutely no idea what Starmer stands for or genuinely believes. He’s a total mystery

UtopiaPlanitia · 21/06/2024 15:02

Found an interesting article by Kathleen Stock that might be relevant to this thread.

Keir Starmer’s moral vacuum Labour's ethical limits remain unclear

unherd.com/2024/06/keir-starmers-moral-vacuum/

'This week brought a new performance to pore over, in the form of a filmed walk-and-talk with Gary Neville in the Lake District, a location for Starmer family holidays when he was young ?…Here again, though, the video signalled as little information as a plain white T-shirt worn on matchday. Along with a few repeated manifesto pledges, we learnt that the Labour leader puts “country first, party second”, believes in “action not words”, wants to “return politics to public service”, and is aiming for a “decade of national renewal, fixing the fundamentals”. On “day one, sleeves rolled up”, he plans to “hit the ground running”.

In fact, this is Starmer playing the fictional character created during focus groups before the Labour leadership election, as described in Deborah Mattinson’s book Beyond The Red Wall…Mattison would eventually become Starmer’s Director of Strategy. Labour Together’s then-director, Morgan McSweeney, would become the party’s new campaign director and the mastermind of Starmerism. Four years later, a strong and purposeful Starmer entered stage right, jaw set and sleeves rolled-up, ready to hit the ground running on the NHS, housing, education, crime, tax avoidance, and immigration — as instructed.

Compared to the fantasised projections of some politicians upon the electorate, this doesn’t necessarily sound bad. Still, it has obvious weak points. One issue is that, without an accompanying positive and well-articulated vision of what human flourishing looks like, communitarianism is only as Left-wing as the community whose desires are currently being accommodated; that is, it will be contingently on the Left of the political spectrum rather than essentially so. And perhaps more seriously, a lack of accompanying discussion about ethical values will leave the electorate chaotically chasing its own tail.

…To take an obvious example: decreeing that people should be free to do what they want without harming others downgrades the importance of inherited social bonds.

…It would be good to have a concrete idea of what Labour’s moral limits are, expressed in plain terms.

…In the end, being vague about the party’s concrete ethical worldview, while deferring to the sensibleness of the British voter, just won’t be enough.'

CorruptedCauldron · 21/06/2024 14:34

I was enraged after watching that clip of Keir responding to the question about his Blair-induced reverse ferret.

Keir’s response was proof he can’t see women and he can’t hear women. It’s just noise in his ears. An irritating whine, why won’t they just shut up and be kind and stop being so toxic. Rosie was right on a biological level but she was too toxic about it, she should have kept her mouth shut. Sure, Tony said the same thing but he put it very well, actually. He said it in such a nice, clear, kind, manly voice, and he was definitely not being toxic because he’s a man, and men aren’t poisonous witches.

Starmer doesn’t see or hear women or understand why they have legitimate concerns. Half the population is invisible to him so that’s why he’s lost my vote. He’s a misogynist, whether he realises it or not.

CocoapuffPuff · 21/06/2024 13:27

Ah OK. Odd thing to get wrong.

BaronessEllarawrosaurus · 21/06/2024 13:15

He did state in an interview that he had 2 sons but it was pretty clear with the phrasing that it was a slip of the tongue which he has since confirmed.

Swipe left for the next trending thread