WOMAN'S HOUR TODAY!

But by the same token won't a vote for Labour be taken as an endorsement of their position on gender?

After all the effort we went to try to move the Labour Party's position.

I understand that this is an impossible election.

*That means a no to Conservative, no to Reform. Obviously no to Lib Dems and Greens because of women's rights.

So, back to voting Labour?? But can they actually be trusted on women's rights? I don't think they can?

Spoiled vote? Seems pretty pointless as no one will care.

What the actual hell do left leaning voters who care about this issue do?*

Thank you for describing so clearly my POV.

For me a Labour vote won't achieve much so I think I can vote knowing it won't impact the outcome. What about your area?

Has Kier Starmer, or any other Labour politician, ever been within range of an interviewer or member of the public asking them about autogynephilia? That particular condition never seems to feature in these political discussions and I think it really needs to. If politicians are too prudish or nervous to consider AGP as relevant to this discussion they shouldn't be able to escape dealing with the reality of the subject via disingenuous discussions of marginalised and disadvantaged people.

I am a left-leaning politically homeless voter.

Due to recent polls suggesting that Reform could be serious contenders, I thought I should probably read their manifesto.

I was horrified to find myself agreeing with the first few sections, although I was sceptical about how the figures would stack up. I was genuinely wondering whether they were as bad as I'd assumed and thought they might be worth considering.

Biological sex and school education, great. Clear and unequivocal. And for me, I'm almost a single issue voter.

Almost.

I got to the section on policing and started to feel uncomfortable. As soon as I reached the part about leaving the European Court of Human Rights, I was out. But I kept reading, and if it hadn't already been confirmed, the dog whistling xenophobia of their immigration policies proved my preconceptions of Reform were right. Absolutely fucking awful.

But as @GC5 says, a vote for Reform won't be interpreted as voting for women's rights. It will be interpreted as support for far right, anti-immigration ideology and it will encourage others to move in that direction.

The problem is that no one gives a shit about spoiled votes either. There was a very knowledgeable poster on another thread who's been at the count in previous elections. Parties don't see what's written and don't particularly care. No one is going to give a shiny shit about spoiled votes.

I had been wondering whether I could hold my nose and vote Tory - but I've seen the recent consultation to replace disability benefits with vouchers, and honestly they can fuck right off. My DM has cerebral palsy, and both my DC are autistic and require a LOT of support, one with particularly high needs who will never live independently. Life is bloody hard financially trying to support three disabled people and also work, but the Tories think we're the low-hanging fruit they can pick on to cut costs, rather than squeezing their wealthy chums.

That means a no to Conservative, no to Reform. Obviously no to Lib Dems and Greens because of women's rights.

So, back to voting Labour?? But can they actually be trusted on women's rights? I don't think they can?

Spoiled vote? Seems pretty pointless as no one will care.

What the actual hell do left leaning voters who care about this issue do?!

Completely agree! Well said.

Sex is observed. Not assigned.

If you can’t get that right you shouldn’t even be commenting.

I just cannot understand why none of the major political parties are willing to raise their heads above the parapet on this one. Women (actual biological ones!) make up 50% of the electorate so surely they should be invested in representing us and actually able to define what we are.

I absolutely believe in free speech and equal rights for everyone but men cannot become women and I am utterly sick of the cowardice and kowtowing to the TQ+ brigade that The current political parties are entertaining. Shame on them all.

Brianna was murdered by two extremely disturbed teenagers. The detailed reporting of the trial made it clear that they had drawn up a list of potential victims. Brianna was not the first to be targeted. We don't know why the other names were on the list. Brianna was chosen after their first murder attempt failed because the female murderer was sure she could get Brianna to come to the park alone. Brianna had recently changed schools and had hardly any friends. The messages that went between the two murderers seem to show that the male was keen to kill a trans person, but the female didn't seem to be motivated by that specifically. Brianna was dreadfully unlucky. If the first attempt had succeeded, they would probably have been caught earlier and Brianna would never have known about being on the list. It's far too simple to say this was a targeted transphobic murder.

WTF? Why exactly do you think she was murdered?
The judge directly stated that it should not be recorded as this.
And yet here we are, posters who think they know best.

Spoilt ballot papers are read by the parties so it still gets your message across

Only to check that it is actually spoilt (ie they’re not missing a vote they could have had). They don’t read the crap people write on them. They look through and occasionally pick out one and dispute it. They only watch the spoilt pile to make sure there aren’t any votes they can squeeze out of it. Nobody cares what you write on the spoilt ballot paper. The amount of spoilt votes are simply read out as part of the result, eg Con 5498, Lab 4123, LibDem 976, and 23 spoilt ballot papers.

I thought it was widely accepted that Brianna Ghey wasn’t killed because of transphobia?

The killers had others on their hit list but Brianna was just easier to pick off, unfortunately. Brianna was eager to please, anxious and that meant Brianna was a prime target. Trans hate wasn’t the reason for the murder so it feels a bit disingenuous to point to Brianna as “proof” of the fact that trans people have tough lives.

Not trying to be an arse but it is an important distinction.

@Tiredalwaystired - yes bringing Sarah Everard in to this debate is disrespectful too. HTH.

If you think Reform know what a woman is, then please read their manifesto/contract. They plan to repeal the equality act!

WTF? Why exactly do you think she was murdered?

Your argument is lacking. It was precisely because she was a trans woman she had a tough time.

there are equally lots of women out there having a tough time because they are women. I could bring in Sarah Everard here. Or is that disrespectful too? Because I think that also valid.

I somehow feel if her name had been raised in this debate your response would have been the same.

If you’re against everything else they stand for, then it’s not necessarily sensible to vote for them as a protest vote. They are an anti immigration party first and foremost and there is no way of making clear that it’s their position on trans stuff that is the basis of your vote. If they get a significant percentage of the vote (albeit not likely to be seats) it will be taken as a signal that people are anti immigration, not that it’s about the trans stance.

I’m not suggesting not voting, but I would spoil my ballot paper by writing a GC slogan rather than vote Reform. Spoilt ballot papers are read by the parties so it still gets your message across.

I just said the same thing to dh!

yes, about the sum of it 🙄

When Labour say “Adult Female”, they’re saying what they think we want to hear so that we vote for them. When you dig a little deeper, you find that many of them include TW in that category. It’s a very cynical, disingenuous answer.

The Lib Dem woman seemed to be making a good argument for repeal of the GRA. She said having a GRC had no impact on single-sex spaces and it was purely for the purpose of falsifying information on birth and death certificates.

She implied that there's absolutely no point to a GRC, since there's no point in having incorrect information recorded on official documents, so we should just scrap the GRA (obviously she didn't say that).

@maltravers trust me, the parties now know that woman = AHF is a decider for many women. And they know that Reform will pick up votes because they are clearer on this issue than almost everyone else.

The Communist Party is also clear on this, vote for them if they have a candidate in your constituency!

I'm so proud of the 1,000s of women who have made this an election issue.

@Tiredalwaystired - Briana's murder was shocking and I have nothing but sympathy and respect for her family.

You bringing her into this debate about trans people having a tough time is pretty low IMHO.

If you really want to use victims of violent crime to make your point (and using individuals in this context is v disrespectful) then you are on a hiding to nothing. Women and girls are having much more of a "tough time" in our society than trans people.

Indeed. I feel great sympathy for all those who die violently and for their families. In addition, Brianna had been bullied and that's inexcusable too. Bullying is a problem in schools (and workplaces) and has been for a long time, for all sorts of reasons.

I do think, however, that it should be a given that mental health practitioners (and everyone else) should be honest with distressed youngsters. Nobody can change sex and the medical treatments associated with the affirmative approach are not going to lead to an improved quality of life, will destroy fertility, have a high chance of making it impossible to have a normal sexual response and may actually shorten life expectancy. These are difficult and unpalatable facts to face given that some people's lives have already been ruined by this approach, but they do seem to be facts, and I want politicians to get to grips with them.

The only way I can vote is by candidate, not party. There are better and worse candidates in all parties.

Well, I would say Brianna Ghey had a pretty tough time

My wife has a vagina and breasts, she is a woman and identifies as such!
I have a penis and testicles, I am a man and identify as one!
Cannot think of a more obvious definition.