Conversion Therapy and Cass

Yes pretty much. But he seemed open to listening and accepted he didn’t know everything or know best on this topic which as @DameMaud is a start. I’ve sent him some bits on Cass and the GMN response to the labour manifesto, so hopefully that offers some food for thought. There are supposed to be only tens of votes between him winning and losing here, so I am hoping he is motivated to want every vote.

The candidate was surprised by the high correlation between autism and gender identity issues which suggests he is perhaps not very well versed.

Aka hasn't read Cass given it's a very key part of it!

Sorry I thought my first post didn't post. Anyway, it's a question Wes needs to wrap his mind around.

The 'both sides' thing is starting to give me the menopausal rage.

What next? Shall we 'both sides' the desire of those identifying as minor attracted people and lobbying for scrapping the age of consent to have careers as teachers in schools.

What's the compromise for the women / children who don't want to have to look at adult cock in their changing rooms and the cock-havers that will only accept forcing their way into spaces with unconsenting women and children.

They're not happy with third spaces. They've made that clear. And you've just said we need to compromise. How many Dolatowski victims is an acceptable number? How many women and children harmed?

ANSWER MY QUESTION WES!

Oh Fuck's sake Wes. Talking about it with more 'light less heat'. Fuck off.

If a trans identifying person with a penis wants to share changing rooms with my prepubescent or pubescent daughter and get zir cock out, it shouldn't be a case of 'both sides'. Unless you're in favour of children being props for penis-havers with a fetish.

Fucking fucks sake.

There is no fucking comprimise that doesn't result in destruction of child safeguarding and women's rights. None.

But the Cass Report SHOULD have had the impact of anyone discussing this properly should be refering to Trans-Identifying Children rather than Trans Children as best practice

Sorry. Just catching up with the thread after the video drop so only just caught this from @RedToothBrush
saying same thing about the language.

I'm really getting, and wanting to hone in on, how key language is in all this (I know. Slow on the uptake).
Properly seeing how it's the language (in all the areas) that is so much of this mess, and so how important is to focus on language- epsecially where any ground has been gained in bringing language back to naming reality.

This sounds really productive @PepeParapluie
Well done to you for opening someone up to thinking more critically on this.
These face to face conversations all add up I think, and where we can do our bit (and helps relieve the pressure of feeling powerless in it all too I've found) Even if it does tend to rely on an existing openess from the other person to consider things they hadn't thought through before. I suspect there are way more people like this (just unaware) than staunch activists.
Sounds like you are a good communicator too.

Problem is he's referred to "trans young people" - which is the issue.

Yes. This does seem to show a still incomplete grasp of things.

Terminology that communicates understanding- to refer to these children and young people and what's happening with them, is another area of definition requiring more clarity/reality.

As Cass uses the term 'gender questioning', trust in Streeting (or anyone else) being fully on board, would be greater if they used the same terms I would think?

Personally, I like something like 'gender-exploring', but hey, I'm not in charge!

I spoke to my Lib Dem candidate about this yesterday. Where I live Lib Dem are likely to win. He was clear that Dr Cass’s report is important and good, and that it has brought something to this debate that we can all agree on and focus on. When I asked about banning trans conversion therapy he was not very clear on that. However when I (and, to my pleasant surprise, others) explained what the effect of it would be, he seemed surprised and said he would not agree with doing that. He said he is going to look into it some more and come back to me with more detail about his and the party’s position on this issue.

To my surprise and relief, a trans person who was there agreed that the ban on conversion therapy would be a bad idea and talked about the high rate of autism among the support group they attended. The candidate was surprised by the high correlation between autism and gender identity issues which suggests he is perhaps not very well versed.

Anyway, I am going to follow up with some more detail to him by email today to really explain this issue some more, and also to ask about the non binary ID policy and single sex spaces.

Oh god the more light less heat trope.

And that's the issue with that Cass report; it still appeared to have the idea that some children are "trans." And from a young age.

Problem is he's referred to "trans young people" - which is the issue. Children aren't trans.

Trans is an adult aesthetic decision to change their body based on an idea it might improve mental health (and other drivers, obviously.)

Thanks for sharing this

In a rush, but quick share of Venice Allen interviewing Wes Streeting- first topic discussed is conversion ban/Cass:

Thank you @PepeParapluie on this: "That’s why it’s so important that therapists, counsellors etc have the ability to explore all of those potential issues without fear."

I couldn't agree more.

It’s difficult to say really, I think it was a combination of things. I had a couple of very patient and supportive friends who would listen and gently challenge, but not in a combative way. And I eventually found a very good counsellor I got on well with, who was empathetic and didn’t try to impress her viewpoint or explanations on me. I was able to really explore the underlying causes with her.

There was also just the element of time - I grew up and the intensity of being a teenager softened. And time helped put distance between me and the underlying events that had caused me to feel so unhappy with myself and my body.

Also, breaking away from pro-anorexia websites and tumblr was very helpful, but very difficult because who wants to be away from everyone who agrees with them and surrounded by people who say they’re ill or wrong or crazy?

I suppose as with all these things it’s highly individual and what will help will depend on what the original cause of the issues is or was. That’s why it’s so important that therapists, counsellors etc have the ability to explore all of those potential issues without fear.

@RedToothBrush "You come up with a range of proposals and examine whether they would be effective and they would work and what problems there might be. You discuss this with various interest groups so that you limit the possibility of missing important issues. This also helps you bring people along with change at a later stage."
I know someone who was part of a focus group for the Australian Labor party when they were developing their manifesto. Maybe seven years ago now? His recommendation was that they not seek to pass legislation banning conversion therapy. He had been a vicitm of a para-Church organisation that practised a sort of religious conversion program. There are all sorts of issues with religious freedom if legislation is taken to apply to what people do in Bible study sessions but, also, these groups 99% of the time it's the gay person who has sought out the group. He had also, as a young man, asked to a mainstream psychotherapist about therapy to stop him being gay. I must admit I didn't clarify this with him, but I assume his thinking was that if this psychologist (may also have been a psychiatrist) was worried about legislation they would have to have just said, no, sorry, end of session. Rather than saying the usual sorts of rapport building things like, lets explore that further (and maybe even having to dangle the possibility of that happening while trust is built, given the morass of self loathing and desperation a person could be in).

When the (Australian) Labor party released their plan to support conversion therapy bans he went all out publically saying what a good thing this was. Not many people will know that his advice to them, at the policy development stage, was to not do this.
I'm always frustrated by the screed my posts turn into but my point really is that I don't know where this whole push for conversion therapy bans came from. I think there were other focus groups that demonstrated to the Labor party they would look good to a big enough cohort of voters if they put this in their manifesto. And I don't think you can always know what individuals think when they come out in support of a party line in public.

Thanks @DameMaud for your kind words and thank you to @RedToothBrush for starting this thread and for your commentary on the need for unambiguous language in law. I was also struck by your comparison to the Dignity in Dying movement, which I happen to support as I am constantly horrified by the overreach of the MAID scheme in Canada.

Thanks for sharing your experience @PepeParapluie - I'd love to know, if you don't mind sharing, what was most helpful to you during that time?

I appreciate the discussion has moved on somewhat but my definition of trans is,,,
anyone who, for any reason, wants everyone to pretend they are not the sex they are.

I'm pretty confident that covers all bases including non-binary.

@GeorgeOrwellsTurningGrave these parts of your (very excellent) post resonated with me:

“On top of that, its cool! You get celebrated! It's an idea that's being promoted in schools and in media.”

and

“And yet it's the the clients, particularly young clients who are absolutely certain they are trans (whatever that means), that we should be most concerned about.”

I’ve posted a few times about my experience of having anorexia and I can’t get past the similarities between my teenage anorexic self and what I see in lots of trans identifying teenage girls’ stories. In the depths of my anorexia I can wholeheartedly say I would absolutely have signed up to life altering surgery or risky drugs if I thought it’d make me thinner. I also experienced, as a teenager in the mid noughties, a culture that celebrated thinness. Even extreme thinness to an extent. It made it very very difficult for anyone to convince me that what I was doing was bad or wrong. ‘They’ just didn’t understand, or were jealous that I had the ability to be good at dieting when they weren’t.

God only knows what would have happened to me if therapists and counsellors hadn’t been able to openly and confidently challenge my delusional beliefs.

Incidentally, I only really began to recover and emerge from that in my mid twenties, which is when your brain really starts to mature. Before that point I would have been dead sure about my decisions, but would’ve been catastrophically wrong about them too. I feel a desperate sadness for young people who have been allowed and enabled to make irreversible decisions affecting their bodies, fertility, sexual function and other aspects of their lives at a time when they were vulnerable and too young to make a fully informed decision. It’s a travesty.

I don't know how I missed this excellent and completely thorough post first time round!
But I'm very glad I found this.
What you say about the professional bodies is spot on too.
This aspect has been so disturbing (and without too much disclosure- affected my career).
Thank you for detailing the issues as they are in practice so much more clearly than I think I could have done @GeorgeOrwellsTurningGrave

It sounds so frustrating to be muted while that goes on, but pleased to hear the board are responding well. Will you / others also get a chance to ask questions from a GC perspective?