Lib Dem manifesto

I support equality for women and liberation from patriarchy.

One of the ways the patriarchy exerts control is through rigid gender traditionalism. The man earns the money. The woman raises the children. The woman and the children are financially dependent on the man. The woman's role is denigrated in society and seen as less important; she is expected to care for free.

One way out of that is to get men more involved in childrearing and women more involved in work. Women then have more financial independence and are better able to cope if their marriage is abusive or their husband dies.

Men value women's contributions more and stop thinking they deserve their wife to be an unpaid skivvy, because they are brought up in more egalitarian relationships.

All of that, to me, is a price worth paying by women theoretically giving up some of their maternity leave to their husbands.

Like I say, take up of existing SPL arrangements have been so low I really don't think this thing of men "taking the leave" is going to be a huge issue.

The number of men who will see shared maternity leave as a way to enjoy paid time off work is not zero. The number of legislators and employees who will see 12 months of shared parental leave as an indulgence and nice to have and lobby to cut it is not zero.

Maternity leave is for the mother and the baby and it is 12 months long because it is the optimum way of raising a happy, healthy securely attached baby.

As a population, mothers are better at looking after babies than fathers. Fact.

The way this argument has developed (can't prevent abuse of the situation so might as well not bother trying) has similarities to 'some men will rape anyway so why bother having single sex spaces'.

It's about as logical.

You may as well argue that because some people get injuries from their seat belt in car crashes, we may as well get rid of seat belt laws.

Women have some good rights in the UK, including maternity. Why are some so eager to give this away?

Campaign for better paternity leave and for this and mat leave to be fully subsidised by government, not a cost to businesses.

No one is suggesting that.

Right. So no SPL in those cases then.

It used to be the case that while an infant is being breastfed, there is no 50/50. The infants welfare is supposed to come before the fathers rights.

They definitely don't work on 50/50 frequent and short visits is the recommended not overnight care.

I did wonder about that. I assume it would be linked to the legal child care arrangements e.g. if it was agreed to be 50/50, the father would be entitled to 50%.
Not sure how childcare arrangements work with newborns.

It's done by the two employers writing to each other to confirm (at least it was when I did it). Not really that complicated.

I've had 2x third degree tears and an ELCS. The ELCS was far less debilitating.

How do you think getting rid of SPL and enforcing maternity leave for mothers only is going to protect them from an abusive husband?

C sections take longer to recover from, so I'm a bit confused here. You can't drive for six weeks and need sign off from a doctor before you can drive again.

I don't really see how you can link maternity and paternity leave unless you work for the same employer anyway!

Surely if I take a year's leave that's up to me and my employer and if my partner's employer allows him to take leave, that's between them? Or is the idea that if you get tax payer funded paid maternity leave for a year you would only get 10.5 months if your partner wanted it and they'd get the other 6 weeks? Stat mat leave pay is really low anyway - I couldn't' have afforded to live on it.

I think a bigger issue is childcare costs and I think childcare should be tax deductible in full.

If women were allowed to have elective c-sections if they preferred ,without being accused of being too posh to push, wasting NHS resources etc, the number of birth injuries would reduce massively. See the example of Louise Thompson.

I would have thought it was better for baby too - ie having a fit and healthy mum who gets over the birth quickly. But I digress!

This, exactly. It's not difficult to understand.

I wonder what would happen if the parents weren't together anymore.

Would your former partner be able to claim half the leave (or more? Is there a limit that each person could take?) even if you disagree?

Sir Ed Davey seems to have written a bucket list of fun things to do and get his political party to pay for. If I had any respect for him at this point I would be losing it rapidly each time his vapid and pointless nonsense appears on the news.

The women who are forced are the ones at highest risk. They are the ones that need the most protection, and this will affect their children as well.

I think we have to do baby steps of what is palatable. At the moment additional leave will be perceived as "too expensive" and damaging to business.
As I said upthread, take up of SPL has been low. I don't think there is much risk of women being forced to give up leave they want to take.

I can't see what the issue is (unless you are some kind of gender traditionalist).

The issue is that maternal leave and parental leave should be separate. Men don't gestate and their bodies don't have to recover from childbirth, then move into breastfeeding.
Men should not be able to guilt trip their partners into giving up some of their maternal leave.

No, not a gender traditionalist. Being a feminist is rather at opposition to that. Objecting to sex-based stereotypes was a fairly inbuilt instinct for me.

You'll note that I have already explicitly stated that I want to see fathers more involved with parenting, for exactly the reason that you quote.

I also don't want the current mode of SPL removed. I don't in any way want the hard fought for entitlement for women to be compromised by any extension or change to SPL. Women must be able to take their full entitlement if they choose. Any pushback on maternity leave is a dangerous path for women imo.

Pushing for improvements to Paternity leave will be hard but I don't think that's a reason not to do it.

Not really. We have exceptionally generous mat leave in this country, its not some kind of divine right.
I think its more about levelling the playing field for parents. I personally would like to see fathers more involved with their children and child rearing as its key to breaking down patriarchal assumptions. This policy is about flexibility for families, I can't see what the issue is (unless you are some kind of gender traditionalist).

Its a compromise being demanded of women. As per usual.

While I agree with you, there would be uproar. It's been hard enough to get women to have a year.

I think employers/businesses would demand a reduction in ML to support PL. This is a workable compromise - net zero effect on business, the leave is given to "the family" rather than the mother.

@CassieMaddox I'm not suggesting anything like that. I'm saying that women's current entitlement should not be eroded to a choice/negotiation to enable shared leave. Fathers/other parent should have their own separate entitlement. Ie Paternity (Other parent) leave should be extended, rather than Mat & Pat leave merge into only Shared Parental Leave.