To those who consider prostitution rape...

😂

Nah. I can't really be bothered to spend a lot of time writing a long post to someone who's so wedded to their idea they don't even notice the glaring contradictions in their own posts!

@CassieMaddox ,

‘But I guess immigrants/addicts being raped doesn't matter ‘

Not relevant to anything I wrote and just sloganeering- can’t you reduce the word count, though to make it a bit more impactful?!

And the women are frequently illegal immigrants, addicts etc, and it brings the police into their lives so they frequently do end up arrested or deported.

Oh, so not belle-du-jour types then?

But I guess immigrants/addicts being raped doesn't matter

@CassieMaddox ,

You need to read the link above about how it actually has the reverse effect.

No one gives evidence against the men, so it is impossible to convict. And the women are frequently illegal immigrants, addicts etc, and it brings the police into their lives so they frequently do end up arrested or deported.

Someone above linked to several proper pieces of research on this, They are worth a read.

As I said, it is also infantilising if the women are adults and making a free choice. Whichever way you look at it, an adult inciting a criminal act is a criminal (unless you believe that they aren’t really adults with agency).

Under the Nordic model the woman's choice is not illegal. It is the man who would be committing a crime. As the spectre of committing the crime of rape doesn't deter them, maybe this will.

@ApocalipstickNow ,

I think that is where we have a good definition of rape in law already where the man has to reasonably believe that the woman consented.

To me, it is his responsibility to ask for proof of age where there is any doubt. And, obviously, if she proves to be underage and he hasn’t checked, he should be jailed.

Issues other than age should be his responsibility too (as in if she is being coerced). There is no reason that this couldn’t be tested in court under current laws. But the money itself isn’t coercion.

I don’t think things like addictions, MH etc should be his responsibility to any greater extent than any unpaid hook up. If you meet someone in a bar, online etc and then have sex, there are exactly the same issues.

That isn’t being unsympathetic, but we have existing laws, support etc for all those things. Unfortunately, all of our support services are at breaking point and I know people are slipping through the net all the time. I do make regular charitable contributions to support those in desperate need (mainly my local soup kitchen).

“I do think that, if you truly believe in equality, that provided the woman has made a free choice, criminalising one half of the transaction is quite infantilising to the woman.”

But again, that’s a huge assumption which ignores the majority of women.

How does a punter know the age of the woman (if they are legally a woman*) what MH issues they face, what addictions etc.

*legal as in over 18 ie not legally a child.

@Dumbo12 ,

‘I'm still trying to reconcile the idea that women have to take ppersonal responsibility, while the men wii pay for sex, presumably, don't.’

It is about taking personal responsibility for making a choice as an adult human being. You may not like the choice that they make to prostitute themselves, but is it right to ban the choice?

You keep going on about how the ‘Belle du jour’ type is vanishingly rare. Honestly, I have no idea of the truth or how many of them there are; I suspect, however, nor do you. What you are saying is that choice should be made illegal (I know you want to criminalise the man, not the woman, but the idea behind it is to ban it altogether).

I do think that, if you truly believe in equality, that provided the woman has made a free choice, criminalising one half of the transaction is quite infantilising to the woman.

I do get that there are some things that we don’t allow for the good of society, such as paid surrogacy or organ sales. And you could claim prostitution is on the same spectrum. But, again, most wouldn’t make the claim that sleeping with someone for money was akin to selling an organ. But I do see this argument.

And then, how far do you go? Would you make penetration illegal or all sexual acts, and would that only include face-to-face or virtual too. Should Only Fans be made illegal?

But, even I did buy the above, you then have the practical argument. You can’t ban prostitution. Even in countries where the penalty is death, it still happens. And the evidence of the famed Nordic model is that it causes more harm, and again penalises the women more than the men.

I have engaged properly on this thread and steered clear of trite or ad hominem attacks. This is a discussion board and people are entitled to dissenting views, I don’t get upset or shamed by 3 (or even 7) word trivial meaningless slogans, so you will be wasting your time replying in that vane (unless trying to impress other fellow travellers).

I'm still trying to reconcile the idea that women have to take ppersonal responsibility, while the men wii pay for sex, presumably, don't.
Another issue, which rarely gets spoken of, is the treatment of prostituted women, by punters. Not the physical violence, but the belief that it is the punters right to speak to/ at the women, in any way they choose. The degradation and deliberate humiliation stayes with those women and girls for years, it colours their entire lives and the punters do it partly as they blame the women for the punters having to pay for sex.

personal responsibility.

personal responsibility eh? There's a thought - what about taking "personal responsibility" for where you (general you) stick your dick and stick it where it's actually welcome.

How about taking "personal responsibility" and take a long, hard look at yourself. Setting all other objections to prostitution aside do you really want to be the sad sack that can only get laid if you pay for it?

Even if you don't care about the inherent immorality of prostitution, even if you believe there are women making a genuine choice, even if you don't think that "choice" causes societal damage, don't you (general you) have any self respect?

Exactly. Even if we accept that ejaculation is a "need" it does not follow that it needs to be into or onto a woman's body.
I don't accept it as a need anyway. Food, water, shelter, nuturance and safety are needs. Notice that prostituted women's need for safety is considered a lower priority than men's desire to use them to ejaculate by the the defenders of the sex trade.
Their sense of privilege and entitlement is insane.

Men don't need to buy sex. They could just masturbate. They pay women because they want the use of the woman's body.
There are no clever arguments that can make it a moral act.

Definition of a strawman fallacy: A straw man fallacy (sometimes written as strawman) is the informal fallacy of refuting an argument different from the one actually under discussion, while not recognizing or acknowledging the distinction

Laidback's quotes:
"To suggest that a woman who chooses to be a sex worker is a victim or rape is just another example of some women’s rather tenuous relationship with personal responsibility."
“Well money is a need and, arguably, sex is”
How do you know anyone is not a victim of modern slavery?

Its not a strawman if it’s an almost word for word outline of your actual argument silly. Unless you are a strawjohn all along.

Frothing at the mouth with desperation.

What % of us are defending slavery?

That was unworthy even of your clearly low standards for argumentation.
If you are a consumer in an industry rife with slavery then of course you don't know. What industries would those be? Please list them. Arborists and builders, according to your example? 😄

This discussion is flying well above your head. It's not about the women who sell their bodies. It's about the men who consume them. Since they do not know if the woman is/has been trafficked or not, that makes them very close cousins to rapists. If they aren't raping somebody, it's simply a matter of the luck of the draw. What is your response to that?

I mean I knew it was Tolkien for a reason @risefromyourgrave

Hot nerds are my kryptonite. Pun intended.

Ah, come on now, I bloody love a bit of Tolkien, and I’m certainly not an incel!
But then neither am I arguing that because modern slavery exists it should be ok to buy a woman for sex.
#notallTolkienfans

oh well heaven forbid we do them a disservice to prevent a large number of women and children being raped...

...oh hang on a minute, that would be fine. let's do that

well, people on this thread have talked about trafficked women. I assume your talk of modern slavery means that you acknowledge trafficking of prostituted women is common?

they do not and cannot consent to men having sex with them

so that is rape by your definition no?

i'm not clear how anyone is blurring any definitions here

Sex with someone against their will is rape.

A person who chooses to freely accept payment for sex with a person they don’t really want to have sex with is a choice by a consenting adult.

To try and claim all prostitution is rape is doing a massive disservice to people in the first category.

And a Tolkien typo does scream incel

It's telling you can’t make an argument against it other than having to Isengard a straw man.

Not as telling as men arguing desperately for the right to have sex with women who don't want to have sex with them.

‘M just pointing out the hypocrisy in the sentiment in this subject.

Its telling you can’t make an argument against it other than having to Isengard a straw man.