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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

To those who consider prostitution rape...

644 replies

Ahsoka2001 · 09/06/2024 21:31

I recently found some old MN threads where posters debated whether a man who has sex with a prostitute commits rape. Those in favour argued that the woman's consent is not freely given - it is conditional on the basis money is exchanged and consent cannot be bought -

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3012135-Is-prostitution-rape

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/2791778-does-having-sex-with-a-prostitute-constitute-rape

To those who agree with this position, I'm wondering where exactly do we draw the line? If all prostitution is rape, then -

a) What about female pornstars? They only have sex on camera on the condition that they are paid for the shoot. Does this mean every male pornstar in history is a rapist because the woman's consent was bought and not freely given?

b) What about mainstream/narrative cinema actresses? If a female Hollywood star only consents to a sex scene on the condition of receiving a paycheck for the role, does that mean they're being sexually assaulted when they perform a scene in which they're kissed/touched sexually? Does this mean male Hollywood actors who partake in these scenes are sexual assaulters?

...Surely not! But again, if all prostitution automatically equals rape, then how and where do we draw the line?

Is prostitution rape? | Mumsnet

I've seen posters referring to prostitution as rape on here and I am interested to hear the reasoning. I am undecided on the issue as I have not r...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3012135-Is-prostitution-rape

OP posts:
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25
IHaveNeverLivedintheCastle · 26/06/2024 05:01

"Working Voluntarily"

BBC News.

XChrome · 26/06/2024 01:38

MrsTerryPratchett · 26/06/2024 01:27

Just to check your consistency:

Selling organs?
BDSM people agreeing to kill and be killed, eat body parts etc.?
Mentally ill people not being sectioned because they can harm themselves if they like?
Surrogacy for profit?
Adoption for profit?

Is there no limit to freedom of choice or is the limit juuuuust after vulnerable women being raped for money?

Funny how that works, isn't it.

XChrome · 26/06/2024 01:36

Christinapple · 26/06/2024 00:25

How prevalent is sex trafficking in the UK? I'll just leave this here

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/oct/20/government-trafficking-enquiry-fails

"The UK's biggest ever investigation of sex trafficking failed to find a single person who had forced anybody into prostitution in spite of hundreds of raids on sex workers in a six-month campaign by government departments, specialist agencies and every police force in the country."

"The Home Office estimates that there are up to 4,000 victims of trafficking for sexual exploitation in the UK at any one time.

Sexual exploitation in the UK has increased significantly from 2017-2020. Recent data released through Freedom Of Information requests (FOI) suggest cases rose from 158 in May 2017 to 543 in April 2020. Escaped victims reveal that they are beaten, forcibly injected with narcotics, and pressured to watch their own families' physical abuse. The NRM discovered that the most prevalent type of exploitation for children was sexual, including forced prostitution. Although many children forced into exploitation are from vulnerable backgrounds, the issue of child trafficking is not limited to any particular demographic or socio-economic boundaries."

https://www.humanrightspulse.com/mastercontentblog/taking-a-closer-look-into-the-uks-human-trafficking-crisis

Naturally, statistics can only count cases which were reported to authorities. Since the overwhelming majority of them are not, it is not possible to know the true rate.

Taking a Closer Look Into The UK’s Human Trafficking Crisis — Human Rights Pulse

Human trafficking in the UK is a crisis hiding in plain sight.

https://www.humanrightspulse.com/mastercontentblog/taking-a-closer-look-into-the-uks-human-trafficking-crisis

MrsTerryPratchett · 26/06/2024 01:27

Laidbackguy · 25/06/2024 22:43

I’m just a believer in freedom of choice, what two consenting adults agree to do is not my business.

I get that some people want to impose their world view on others, I just only really think I have the right to dictate others life choices.

Just to check your consistency:

Selling organs?
BDSM people agreeing to kill and be killed, eat body parts etc.?
Mentally ill people not being sectioned because they can harm themselves if they like?
Surrogacy for profit?
Adoption for profit?

Is there no limit to freedom of choice or is the limit juuuuust after vulnerable women being raped for money?

MrsTerryPratchett · 26/06/2024 01:24

Christinapple · 26/06/2024 00:25

How prevalent is sex trafficking in the UK? I'll just leave this here

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/oct/20/government-trafficking-enquiry-fails

"The UK's biggest ever investigation of sex trafficking failed to find a single person who had forced anybody into prostitution in spite of hundreds of raids on sex workers in a six-month campaign by government departments, specialist agencies and every police force in the country."

A 14 year old article about police incompetency? OK mate, nice try.

Christinapple · 26/06/2024 00:25

How prevalent is sex trafficking in the UK? I'll just leave this here

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/oct/20/government-trafficking-enquiry-fails

"The UK's biggest ever investigation of sex trafficking failed to find a single person who had forced anybody into prostitution in spite of hundreds of raids on sex workers in a six-month campaign by government departments, specialist agencies and every police force in the country."

XChrome · 25/06/2024 23:51

Laidbackguy · 25/06/2024 22:32

According to https://www.antislavery.org/

“Modern slavery exists in many forms in the UK, including trafficking into criminal activities like cannabis farming, sexual exploitation, domestic slavery or forced labour on farms, in construction, shops, bars, nail bars, car washes or manufacturing.”

I think I’ve covered all of these in posts?

How prevalent is it? Is it as prevalent as in the sex trade? Is the rate of violence towards these workers comparable? Is the health risk the same, as in, for example, STDs? If not, they aren't comparable.

You can avoid it by hiring or patronizing only licensed, bonded firms, anyway. The same could apply to prostitutes. I am not opposed to licensed workers and state oversight, such as mandatory STD testing.
I am not opposed to legalization at all. I am opposed to callous fuckers who stick their dicks in people who have a high probability of being trafficking victims. You will not change my mind with false comparisons.

Laidbackguy · 25/06/2024 22:43

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 24/06/2024 20:47

you really are desperate for it to be ok for you to buy sex aren't you?

I’m just a believer in freedom of choice, what two consenting adults agree to do is not my business.

I get that some people want to impose their world view on others, I just only really think I have the right to dictate others life choices.

Laidbackguy · 25/06/2024 22:39

MrsTerryPratchett · 24/06/2024 20:45

What percentage of modern slavery is acceptable?

If you only care about slavery in relation to making a point about sex work, you don't actually care. Most trafficking is for sex.

Lets not let facts get in the way of your opinion.

Forced labour
Most cases of forced labour (86 per cent) are found in the private sector. Forced labour in sectors other than commercial sexual exploitation accounts for 63 per cent of all forced labour, while forced commercial sexual exploitation represents 23 per cent of all forced labour. Almost four out of five of those in forced commercial sexual exploitation are women or girls.

Laidbackguy · 25/06/2024 22:32

XChrome · 24/06/2024 22:12

That was unworthy even of your clearly low standards for argumentation.
If you are a consumer in an industry rife with slavery then of course you don't know. What industries would those be? Please list them. Arborists and builders, according to your example? 😄

According to https://www.antislavery.org/

“Modern slavery exists in many forms in the UK, including trafficking into criminal activities like cannabis farming, sexual exploitation, domestic slavery or forced labour on farms, in construction, shops, bars, nail bars, car washes or manufacturing.”

I think I’ve covered all of these in posts?

Home

We're the world's oldest human rights organisation, campaigning for freedom from slavery for everyone, everywhere, always.

https://www.antislavery.org

Dumbo12 · 25/06/2024 15:52

Sorry don't know what happened with the @bit that should have been @MrsTerryPratchett

Dumbo12 · 25/06/2024 15:45

@Ahsoka2001 MrsTerryPratchett
I'm with you on this, have also sat alongside, mainly women and girls, helped them to leave and relocate. infantilising ? No, helping them to live a life where self harm scars don't add a premium to your cost, where punters re-enact your familial abuse? Yes

MrsTerryPratchett · 25/06/2024 14:17

Dumbo12 · 25/06/2024 13:02

I wonder why some men feel the need to educate women on prostitution and it's effects on the women involved? I wonder why they feel that they have more knowledge of these issues than women do?

When their entire knowledge is either as a punter or none at all. I've lived with, been friends with, worked with and supported women, girls and men for decades. When men wonder why we are so angry, I've sat with a lovely young woman who'd left, in a cafe. Her old pimp walked in. He didn't even recognise her because she was no longer the underage, dangerously underweight, addicted girl he knew. She was terrified. I advised her that if he recognised her and came over, he would have to get through me, and the Mother in me meant it.

Was that 'infantalising' as well? Protecting a teenager from a predator? And she never once struggled for punters when she was working. Because men don't care, they really don't. Bruised, track marks, underage, crying, pregnant; none of that matters. Protecting that is what the apologists and punters on this thread are doing. 6th form debating club arguments aside.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 25/06/2024 13:25

CassieMaddox · 25/06/2024 13:12

He's very sensitive about it.

That’s because he’s actually a very nice guy who loves women

Grammarnut · 25/06/2024 13:17

Newbutoldfather · 25/06/2024 07:28

@Dumbo12 ,

‘I'm still trying to reconcile the idea that women have to take ppersonal responsibility, while the men wii pay for sex, presumably, don't.’

It is about taking personal responsibility for making a choice as an adult human being. You may not like the choice that they make to prostitute themselves, but is it right to ban the choice?

You keep going on about how the ‘Belle du jour’ type is vanishingly rare. Honestly, I have no idea of the truth or how many of them there are; I suspect, however, nor do you. What you are saying is that choice should be made illegal (I know you want to criminalise the man, not the woman, but the idea behind it is to ban it altogether).

I do think that, if you truly believe in equality, that provided the woman has made a free choice, criminalising one half of the transaction is quite infantilising to the woman.

I do get that there are some things that we don’t allow for the good of society, such as paid surrogacy or organ sales. And you could claim prostitution is on the same spectrum. But, again, most wouldn’t make the claim that sleeping with someone for money was akin to selling an organ. But I do see this argument.

And then, how far do you go? Would you make penetration illegal or all sexual acts, and would that only include face-to-face or virtual too. Should Only Fans be made illegal?

But, even I did buy the above, you then have the practical argument. You can’t ban prostitution. Even in countries where the penalty is death, it still happens. And the evidence of the famed Nordic model is that it causes more harm, and again penalises the women more than the men.

I have engaged properly on this thread and steered clear of trite or ad hominem attacks. This is a discussion board and people are entitled to dissenting views, I don’t get upset or shamed by 3 (or even 7) word trivial meaningless slogans, so you will be wasting your time replying in that vane (unless trying to impress other fellow travellers).

The point of the Nordic model is to shame the men who pay for sex. That's it's raison d'etre, and one I agree with. I don't want to criminalize prostitution, I want to limit it as far as possible. And the porn trade. Surrogacy I want to ban. No one has the right to have a child. No one has the right to hire someone's body (and health etc) to have a child. Having sex is not a right either.

CassieMaddox · 25/06/2024 13:12

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 25/06/2024 12:43

uh oh, does people judging you make you sad?

which camp do you fall into lovey?

He's very sensitive about it.

Dumbo12 · 25/06/2024 13:02

I wonder why some men feel the need to educate women on prostitution and it's effects on the women involved? I wonder why they feel that they have more knowledge of these issues than women do?

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 25/06/2024 12:43

Newbutoldfather · 25/06/2024 12:41

@BernardBlacksMolluscs ,

‘They are of course both in camp 3 in my view, although they will be unable to admit it, due to being 'nice guys' who 'love women'.’

Honestly, why do you bother with your amateur psychoanalysis based on a few paragraphs of text? It is irrelevant to the thread and reveals far more about you than anyone else.

You can say anything about me, and then I can make up some bollocks psychoanalysis in return about you.

Some people get really excitable about keyboard warriors’ ad hominem attacks. I don’t.

Whether I am a ‘nice guy’ or not has no relevance to what we are discussing.

uh oh, does people judging you make you sad?

which camp do you fall into lovey?

Newbutoldfather · 25/06/2024 12:41

@BernardBlacksMolluscs ,

‘They are of course both in camp 3 in my view, although they will be unable to admit it, due to being 'nice guys' who 'love women'.’

Honestly, why do you bother with your amateur psychoanalysis based on a few paragraphs of text? It is irrelevant to the thread and reveals far more about you than anyone else.

You can say anything about me, and then I can make up some bollocks psychoanalysis in return about you.

Some people get really excitable about keyboard warriors’ ad hominem attacks. I don’t.

Whether I am a ‘nice guy’ or not has no relevance to what we are discussing.

ballstomonty · 25/06/2024 12:39

Newbutoldfather · 25/06/2024 11:37

@Dumbo12 ,

‘I'm not going to reply to the bad faith argument by the apparent resident punter.’

Wrong on two counts: you have replied and I have never paid for sex.

‘We used to allow people to work in any number of dangerous and horrible places/ jobs, the risks were deemed to be too great and so many more protections were brought in. Think mining, munitions, textiles, foundries etc.’

We still do, none more dangerous than the army. And you will notice the solution wasn’t criminalising them but bringing in strong regulations (which often led to us just exporting the issue to poorer countries, but better than nothing).

Yes the army is a dangerous job, however unlike prostitution people aren't trafficked into it and having mental health conditions or drug addictions would mean someone wouldn't be eligible for entry. Added to that there is support for vetrans with conditions such as ptsd and physical disabilities which have occurred due to the nature of the work, although there are charities that support women leaving prostitution they aren't so well know, people are less likely to give to such charities and you don't generally see them campaigning on the highstreet or outside supermarkets.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 25/06/2024 11:57

We still do, none more dangerous than the army.

oh for heaven's sake

Do I agree that being able to defend ourselves as a nation is essential? Yes

Do I agree that men being able to pay to stick their dicks into women is essential? hmm, that's quite the chin scratcher.

For those who defend buying sex it really boils down to

  1. they don't believe it causes harm to the people being used for paid for sex, or to wider society

  2. they do understand that it causes harm, but they believe the benefits of people being able to buy sex outweigh the harms

  3. they do not care about the harms being caused to those used for paid for sex or to society as a whole

I think we have established that both the posters on this thread who are enthusiastically pro exploitation of women and children for paid for sex accept that in at least some cases the practice is incredibly harmful to those from whom sex is being purchased. Therefore they are not in camp one.

They are of course both in camp 3 in my view, although they will be unable to admit it, due to being 'nice guys' who 'love women'.

Dumbo12 · 25/06/2024 11:46

May I point out that adding to the thread is not replying to one particular poster. Women are allowed to speak to each other without centering men.

Dumbo12 · 25/06/2024 11:44

We criminalised some aspects of dangerous working practices. Guards were mandated for dangerous machinery, we no longer allowed people to crawl under looms to clean, while the looms were running we made it illegal to require someone to do that. etc etc etc,

Newbutoldfather · 25/06/2024 11:37

@Dumbo12 ,

‘I'm not going to reply to the bad faith argument by the apparent resident punter.’

Wrong on two counts: you have replied and I have never paid for sex.

‘We used to allow people to work in any number of dangerous and horrible places/ jobs, the risks were deemed to be too great and so many more protections were brought in. Think mining, munitions, textiles, foundries etc.’

We still do, none more dangerous than the army. And you will notice the solution wasn’t criminalising them but bringing in strong regulations (which often led to us just exporting the issue to poorer countries, but better than nothing).

Dumbo12 · 25/06/2024 11:10

I'm not going to reply to the bad faith argument by the apparent resident punter. No one has used slogans towards him and the harms to women and girls have not been acknowledged by him.
I have worked with prostituted women and they are infantilised by the pimps and the punters, not by people offering them help to leave.
To watch a man try and justify using prostituted women, by suggesting that it's an issue of personal choice for the women, choice which those who are concerned about those women would remove, is most unpleasant. We used to allow people to work in any number of dangerous and horrible places/ jobs, the risks were deemed to be too great and so many more protections were brought in. Think mining, munitions, textiles, foundries etc.