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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

To those who consider prostitution rape...

644 replies

Ahsoka2001 · 09/06/2024 21:31

I recently found some old MN threads where posters debated whether a man who has sex with a prostitute commits rape. Those in favour argued that the woman's consent is not freely given - it is conditional on the basis money is exchanged and consent cannot be bought -

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3012135-Is-prostitution-rape

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/2791778-does-having-sex-with-a-prostitute-constitute-rape

To those who agree with this position, I'm wondering where exactly do we draw the line? If all prostitution is rape, then -

a) What about female pornstars? They only have sex on camera on the condition that they are paid for the shoot. Does this mean every male pornstar in history is a rapist because the woman's consent was bought and not freely given?

b) What about mainstream/narrative cinema actresses? If a female Hollywood star only consents to a sex scene on the condition of receiving a paycheck for the role, does that mean they're being sexually assaulted when they perform a scene in which they're kissed/touched sexually? Does this mean male Hollywood actors who partake in these scenes are sexual assaulters?

...Surely not! But again, if all prostitution automatically equals rape, then how and where do we draw the line?

Is prostitution rape? | Mumsnet

I've seen posters referring to prostitution as rape on here and I am interested to hear the reasoning. I am undecided on the issue as I have not r...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3012135-Is-prostitution-rape

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Grammarnut · 01/07/2024 22:42

ElonGates666 · 01/07/2024 19:08

That's the difference between you and me. Like Julie Bindel, you think that the law should 'send a message' whereas I think it should decrease human suffering. In 1996 0.3% of Swedish women said that they had sold sex at some time in their life. In the next survey in 2008 it was 1.1%. In the most recent survey in 2017 it was 1.5%. Do you still support the Nordic model?

When it comes to morals and ethics we listen to philosophers. I don't know of any modern philosophers who say that trying to ban sex work would be a good thing. Immanuel Kant was against it, but he was against any sex outside marriage. He invented the theory of objectification.

Katharine MacKinnon and Andrea Dworkin took his idea and changed it. They don't count as philosophers though. They thought that any sex between men and women objectifies women, even in marriage. To most people that's a strange idea, although lots of Radical Feminists believe in it.

Martha Nussbaum is a philosopher and she developed the theory of objectification. Her ideas are quite credible but she is on record as saying that she doesn't believe that sex workers or their clients should be criminalized.

So that's the moral and ethical aspects, I don't know what you mean by spiritual. Perhaps you should ask Jim Wells about that, or any one of the evangelicals campaigning for the Nordic model.

There can be no moral or ethical justification for prostitution, which is just a way for men to use women. Victorians justified prostitution by saying it saved respectable women from being raped btw. I doubt that counts as much of an argument.
Selling the holes in ones body is not the same as selling kettles. A society that condones it is morally bankrupt.
I've read Kant. In some ways he has a point.

biscuitandcake · 01/07/2024 21:46

Ayn rand was a bit nuts. I'd imagine she would have something weird to say about prostitution. (are pimps captains of industry?) Maybe we should check her out?

IHaveNeverLivedintheCastle · 01/07/2024 21:37

CassieMaddox · 01/07/2024 21:00

You basically wrote off all the women as "not serious philosophers". Apart from the approved one who I've never heard of. I'm going to have a look, in the meantime I'll make a sportsman's bet with you that she's some kind of tradwife evopsych philosopher who thinks women love being objectified. Maybe something to do with Jordan Peterson. Back in a min.

To be fair to Jordan Peterson given he's vociferously anti-porn and in favour of men growing up and acting responsibly I can't imagine he'd be much support to the punters' lobbyists.

CassieMaddox · 01/07/2024 21:06

Hmm. Well I can't make head nor tail of most of it but there was something about "positive objectification" that I imagine has gained popularity among the MRAs.
Very obscure. Weird.

CassieMaddox · 01/07/2024 21:00

ElonGates666 · 01/07/2024 19:37

I'm not giving you my philosophy, I am informing you of the philosophical ideas of people like Martha Nussbaum. If you want to use terms like 'objectification' then you need to know what she has to say about it. Not just the ideas of MacKinnon and Dworkin. If anything is cod philosophy it is what they came up with.

You basically wrote off all the women as "not serious philosophers". Apart from the approved one who I've never heard of. I'm going to have a look, in the meantime I'll make a sportsman's bet with you that she's some kind of tradwife evopsych philosopher who thinks women love being objectified. Maybe something to do with Jordan Peterson. Back in a min.

XChrome · 01/07/2024 20:59

MrsTerryPratchett · 01/07/2024 20:39

I find it telling too.

My belief is that it's all about justification. At some point they have used, or are using women. In order to deal with the cognitive dissonance of thinking about themselves as Nice Guys, they either have to make the women evil or the trade good. They tried for thousands of years to paint the women as evil (and still do pretend we're doing that). But it doesn't fly any more. So they have to paint the trade as good, or at least the least worst version of it. In order to do that they have to force other people to believe a number of clearly nonsensical things:

That women enjoy having multiple sexual partners a day (who they wouldn't shag except for the money) but at the same time that women are frigid and that's why men have to use sex workers.

That women are safer working together in smaller groups, self-managing but ignoring that when legalisation occurs, we end up with mega brothels run by men.

That sex work doesn't result in trauma but that the only way to prevent the non-existent trauma is decriminalisation.

That sex work involves the women actively choosing this work and that they aren't pimped and trafficked while simultaneously believing that the only want to prevent pimping and trafficking is women organising together in a decriminalisation scenario (see above re mega brothels).

It's work like any other job. Except no other job requires you to insert biohazard into your body, without effective PPE. In any Health and Safety work you learn to look at how to prevent harm. If a task is inherently dangerous, and this is, before you consider PPE or other protections, you first consider stopping the task altogether. Only essential tasks, that require the danger, move on to guards and PPE. There is no other non-essential job like this. And the only reason men want us to believe that it is because they believe sex with unwilling women is essential.

And my favourite, that drugs and sex being sold are analogous. Let's go down that road. Pimps and traffickers are dealers. That one is easy. Addicts are, now hold on, this one is interesting... Addicts are the users of the 'product', so punters. They are compelled by trauma and circumstances to use the product. Hmm, that sounds like the sex workers though. And what are the drugs? Vaginas, mouths and anuses? OK that can't be right. In this scenario you have to decriminalise the punters/addicts by making a clean, safe supply of vaginas/drugs available. That sounds really not OK since women are attached to the vaginas.

OK maybe the women are the addicts in this example. We want to decriminalise them while understanding that drugs (in this case the punters) are harmful and addictive. So we need to make the supply of punters safe and clean. OK but the punters are neither safe, nor are they clean. So that's impossible. I'm fully in favour of decriminalisation of drugs and have said so on here a few times. If I advance search the men on this thread, will I numerous threads about decriminalisation of drugs? Or is the analogy only so men can have sex with unwilling women?

Wonderful points.

XChrome · 01/07/2024 20:56

ElonGates666 · 01/07/2024 20:26

The last of these links is about women in Korea who are in shelters. So either they are drug addicts or they have escaped organized crime. How is this relevant to prostitutes in Britain? Most prostitutes in Britain are not drug addicts, not involved in organized crime and don't get PTSD. It is people like Dr Petra Boynton and Professor Belinda Brooks-Gordon who understand about the reality of prostitution in Britain.

I was unaware you were speaking only of prostitution in the UK, but this includes research in the UK;

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3508959/

Give the nitpicking a rest, dude.

Psychotherapy with Women Who Have Worked in the “Sex Industry”

Psychotherapy is effective for a myriad of mental health symptoms, with the clinical situation dictating the most applicable method. For episodes of severe stress including acute depression and anxiety, supportive mechanisms (crisis interventions and ....

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3508959

IHaveNeverLivedintheCastle · 01/07/2024 20:40

"It's not a question of defending punters. People who are against the war on drugs are not defending drug dealers. They know that the war against drugs harms addicts."

"If people stopped taking drugs then the problem will go away. If people stop drinking or gambling then those problems will go away. That's not going to happen though, so we have to make practical laws. There is no need for trauma, rape and death. Women will continue to die when every time they try to work together for safety they get arrested for brothel keeping"

What a pile of muddled thinking. Drugs and gambling are terrible things which people do to themselves.

You're right - there's no need for trauma, rape and death. Women aren't doing this to themselves - it's the punters whose right to stick their dicks where they're not really wanted who do that.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 01/07/2024 20:39

ElonGates666 · 01/07/2024 20:18

@BernardBlacksMolluscs

So your issue is more with the way the Nordic model has been implemented than the model itself?

In politics what people say they will do and what they actually want to do are two different things. They never had any intention of decriminalizing women.

and on this basis no radical policies should ever be tried under any circumstances?

or is it just the Nordic Model where this restriction applies?

one does wonder who 'they' are in this reply

if we're doing appeals to authority wasn't it Confucius who said 'truly a man who wants to stick his dick where it's not wanted will find a multitude of ways to justify it to himself'? or it might have been Dr Bessel van der Kolk

MrsTerryPratchett · 01/07/2024 20:39

Dumbo12 · 01/07/2024 20:14

I'm sure that we discussed, up thread, the idea that punters and pimps should be criminalised. The prostituted people should be offered real help to leave the situation. CPTSD is a known effect of being prostituted, I can't find the studies from the early 2000's, but there was quite a body of evidence.
I do find it rather telling that women, in this thread are not supporting the prostitution of women, but men are.

Edited

I find it telling too.

My belief is that it's all about justification. At some point they have used, or are using women. In order to deal with the cognitive dissonance of thinking about themselves as Nice Guys, they either have to make the women evil or the trade good. They tried for thousands of years to paint the women as evil (and still do pretend we're doing that). But it doesn't fly any more. So they have to paint the trade as good, or at least the least worst version of it. In order to do that they have to force other people to believe a number of clearly nonsensical things:

That women enjoy having multiple sexual partners a day (who they wouldn't shag except for the money) but at the same time that women are frigid and that's why men have to use sex workers.

That women are safer working together in smaller groups, self-managing but ignoring that when legalisation occurs, we end up with mega brothels run by men.

That sex work doesn't result in trauma but that the only way to prevent the non-existent trauma is decriminalisation.

That sex work involves the women actively choosing this work and that they aren't pimped and trafficked while simultaneously believing that the only want to prevent pimping and trafficking is women organising together in a decriminalisation scenario (see above re mega brothels).

It's work like any other job. Except no other job requires you to insert biohazard into your body, without effective PPE. In any Health and Safety work you learn to look at how to prevent harm. If a task is inherently dangerous, and this is, before you consider PPE or other protections, you first consider stopping the task altogether. Only essential tasks, that require the danger, move on to guards and PPE. There is no other non-essential job like this. And the only reason men want us to believe that it is because they believe sex with unwilling women is essential.

And my favourite, that drugs and sex being sold are analogous. Let's go down that road. Pimps and traffickers are dealers. That one is easy. Addicts are, now hold on, this one is interesting... Addicts are the users of the 'product', so punters. They are compelled by trauma and circumstances to use the product. Hmm, that sounds like the sex workers though. And what are the drugs? Vaginas, mouths and anuses? OK that can't be right. In this scenario you have to decriminalise the punters/addicts by making a clean, safe supply of vaginas/drugs available. That sounds really not OK since women are attached to the vaginas.

OK maybe the women are the addicts in this example. We want to decriminalise them while understanding that drugs (in this case the punters) are harmful and addictive. So we need to make the supply of punters safe and clean. OK but the punters are neither safe, nor are they clean. So that's impossible. I'm fully in favour of decriminalisation of drugs and have said so on here a few times. If I advance search the men on this thread, will I numerous threads about decriminalisation of drugs? Or is the analogy only so men can have sex with unwilling women?

Dumbo12 · 01/07/2024 20:32

ElonGates666 · 01/07/2024 20:26

The last of these links is about women in Korea who are in shelters. So either they are drug addicts or they have escaped organized crime. How is this relevant to prostitutes in Britain? Most prostitutes in Britain are not drug addicts, not involved in organized crime and don't get PTSD. It is people like Dr Petra Boynton and Professor Belinda Brooks-Gordon who understand about the reality of prostitution in Britain.

Sources? And how did they reach those conclusions?

ElonGates666 · 01/07/2024 20:26

XChrome · 01/07/2024 19:58

Ah, a good old fashioned attack on the source.

There were several other authors on that study besides Farley. Is he trying to say that anyone else who has ever been involved with her is also "discredited?"

Weitzer, who actually uses the term "radical feminism" scathingly in his own work, is known for his view that prostitution should be treated like any other transaction. Nope, no bias there at all. 🙄

But hey, I'll play along. More stuff for you to try to find an excuse to dismiss;

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2615337/

https://bmcpsychiatry.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-244X-6-24

"Here again are the results of the study done by Schröttle in 2004. At that time, the majority of women in prostitution were German (80%) (Schröttle & Müller, 2004, p. 651-652). By looking at these numbers, you cannot say that it’s a job like any other: 92% experienced sexual harassment, nearly 90% physical violence and mental violence and 59% sexual violence."

https://www.trauma-and-prostitution.eu/en/2016/11/05/trauma-as-the-pre-condition-and-consequence-of-prostitution/

https://tspace.library.utoronto.ca/handle/1807/97315

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/15299732.2018.1502713

https://journals.shareok.org/jofsw/article/view/52

I can keep on if you like. Happy reading!

The last of these links is about women in Korea who are in shelters. So either they are drug addicts or they have escaped organized crime. How is this relevant to prostitutes in Britain? Most prostitutes in Britain are not drug addicts, not involved in organized crime and don't get PTSD. It is people like Dr Petra Boynton and Professor Belinda Brooks-Gordon who understand about the reality of prostitution in Britain.

ElonGates666 · 01/07/2024 20:18

@BernardBlacksMolluscs

So your issue is more with the way the Nordic model has been implemented than the model itself?

In politics what people say they will do and what they actually want to do are two different things. They never had any intention of decriminalizing women.

XChrome · 01/07/2024 20:15

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 01/07/2024 18:47

I do wonder if these men ever examine why they have such a visceral reaction when the subject of taking away the ability of some humans to pay for sex with other humans comes up

I can't see why anyone but a punter would be so desperate to justify it. Perhaps they are not punters, but punter sympathizers who defend male entitlement to sex, which is not much different from being a punter.
As contrast, I was for the legalization of marijuana for a long time before it was legalized. However, since I never used it myself, I didn't go on sites where people were predominantly against it to argue at length with those people. You need a personal stake to motivate you to behave that way.

Dumbo12 · 01/07/2024 20:14

I'm sure that we discussed, up thread, the idea that punters and pimps should be criminalised. The prostituted people should be offered real help to leave the situation. CPTSD is a known effect of being prostituted, I can't find the studies from the early 2000's, but there was quite a body of evidence.
I do find it rather telling that women, in this thread are not supporting the prostitution of women, but men are.

XChrome · 01/07/2024 20:03

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 01/07/2024 19:25

ah well

If Dr Bessel van der Kolk and Wikipedia say so, then I'm altering my entire world view right now

IKR. I spit out my tea laughing when I saw the Wikipedia quotes.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 01/07/2024 20:02

ElonGates666 · 01/07/2024 19:48

Well, you can start by not arresting women who work together. That's what the Nordic model is supposed to do but never does. In Ireland women still get arrested, the most high profile case was two Romanian women who were arrested then deported.

Before the Nordic model was adopted in Ireland the Justice Minister Frances Fitzgerald was asked in parliament if women would still be arrested for working together. She said they would because they might only be pretending that they don't have a pimp.

Spending more money on rehab for addicts, counselling, retraining, housing. These are the practical things to do.

they sound like good ideas. So your issue is more with the way the Nordic model has been implemented than the model itself?

I do believe that buying sex is fundamentally wrong, and is always exploitation. I don't think it is always rape, but it definitely is sometimes, and that's enough for me

I think the principle of the Nordic model that the buyers of sex should be heavily punished, while the sellers should be supported to stop seems like the most sensible and humane way to minimise a fundamentally harmful and morally wrong practice. I get that politicians can fuck up the implementation, but that doesn't mean the fundamental idea is wrong

I like Dervel's idea that people who are convicted of buying sex should be placed on the sex offenders register

XChrome · 01/07/2024 19:58

ElonGates666 · 01/07/2024 15:56

I have read this 'research' by Melissa Farley. Conducted in 5 countries, the women in Germany were 54 women from a drop-in shelter for drug addicts in Hamburg. These women are not representative of sex workers.

Melissa Farley has been discredited. Read the controversies online about her 'research'. This is on her Wikipedia page.

"Farley's prostitution studies have been criticized by sociologist Ronald Weitzer for reported issues with methodology. Weitzer was critical of what he saw as a lack of transparency in the interviews, how responses were translated into statistical data, sampling bias in favor of marginalized sex workers (such as street workers), and the general application of Farley's studies to oppose any kind of sex work."

Ah, a good old fashioned attack on the source.

There were several other authors on that study besides Farley. Is he trying to say that anyone else who has ever been involved with her is also "discredited?"

Weitzer, who actually uses the term "radical feminism" scathingly in his own work, is known for his view that prostitution should be treated like any other transaction. Nope, no bias there at all. 🙄

But hey, I'll play along. More stuff for you to try to find an excuse to dismiss;

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2615337/

https://bmcpsychiatry.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-244X-6-24

"Here again are the results of the study done by Schröttle in 2004. At that time, the majority of women in prostitution were German (80%) (Schröttle & Müller, 2004, p. 651-652). By looking at these numbers, you cannot say that it’s a job like any other: 92% experienced sexual harassment, nearly 90% physical violence and mental violence and 59% sexual violence."

https://www.trauma-and-prostitution.eu/en/2016/11/05/trauma-as-the-pre-condition-and-consequence-of-prostitution/

https://tspace.library.utoronto.ca/handle/1807/97315

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/15299732.2018.1502713

https://journals.shareok.org/jofsw/article/view/52

I can keep on if you like. Happy reading!

Symptoms of Posttraumatic Stress Disorder and Mental Health in Women Who Escaped Prostitution and Helping Activists in Shelters

This study compared the mental symptoms, especially symptoms of posttraumatic stress disorder (PTSD), of women who escaped prostitution, helping activists at shelters, and matched control subjects.We assessed 113 female ex-prostitutes who had been livi...

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2615337

ElonGates666 · 01/07/2024 19:48

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 01/07/2024 19:24

lovey, you quoted Wikipedia (where all the cranks and nutjobs go to try to make their mad opinions mainstream) to back up a point

okey dokes, you want to decrease human suffering (go you!)

what's your suggestion to decrease the suffering experienced by prostituted women, children and men?

Well, you can start by not arresting women who work together. That's what the Nordic model is supposed to do but never does. In Ireland women still get arrested, the most high profile case was two Romanian women who were arrested then deported.

Before the Nordic model was adopted in Ireland the Justice Minister Frances Fitzgerald was asked in parliament if women would still be arrested for working together. She said they would because they might only be pretending that they don't have a pimp.

Spending more money on rehab for addicts, counselling, retraining, housing. These are the practical things to do.

MrsTerryPratchett · 01/07/2024 19:40

we need to listen to the most intelligent people.

People who compare the Nordic Model with the war on drugs are not the most intelligent people, and anyone who defends punters has zero emotional intelligence anyway.

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 01/07/2024 19:40

I am informing you of the philosophical ideas of people like Martha Nussbaum. If you want to use terms like 'objectification' then you need to know what she has to say about it

Grin Grin Grin
you are absolutely priceless

but come on. why don't you inform me about your plan for decreasing the suffering of prostituted women, children and men?

I need to know what you have to say about it

ElonGates666 · 01/07/2024 19:37

CassieMaddox · 01/07/2024 19:25

Jeepers. A whole post of "listen to the men" dressed up as philosophy 😂

I'm not giving you my philosophy, I am informing you of the philosophical ideas of people like Martha Nussbaum. If you want to use terms like 'objectification' then you need to know what she has to say about it. Not just the ideas of MacKinnon and Dworkin. If anything is cod philosophy it is what they came up with.

ElonGates666 · 01/07/2024 19:30

MrsTerryPratchett · 01/07/2024 19:15

Oh my sweet Lord, we've now got Cod Philosophy. We're past 6th Fomr Debating Club onto Fresher Philosophy. PoMo justifications for shagging unwilling women 101 in room 25.

You think Martha Nussbaum is a cod philosopher? You're quite happy to listen to crap about objectification from MacKinnon and Dworkin but there are more intelligent people out there. When considering the moral/ethical aspects of any issue we need to listen to the most intelligent people. It wasn't me who started on morals/ethics, I was responding to Grammarnut.

CassieMaddox · 01/07/2024 19:27

ElonGates666 · 01/07/2024 19:23

Ok, so why don't you tell that to Dr Bessel van der Kolk. I'm sure he'd be interested to hear where you think he is going wrong.

I've read his book and he talks quite a bit about sexual abuse causing trauma Confused

BernardBlacksMolluscs · 01/07/2024 19:26

at least he's quite funny though

(him and Dr Bessel van der Kolk - what a mensch)