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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

To those who consider prostitution rape...

644 replies

Ahsoka2001 · 09/06/2024 21:31

I recently found some old MN threads where posters debated whether a man who has sex with a prostitute commits rape. Those in favour argued that the woman's consent is not freely given - it is conditional on the basis money is exchanged and consent cannot be bought -

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3012135-Is-prostitution-rape

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/2791778-does-having-sex-with-a-prostitute-constitute-rape

To those who agree with this position, I'm wondering where exactly do we draw the line? If all prostitution is rape, then -

a) What about female pornstars? They only have sex on camera on the condition that they are paid for the shoot. Does this mean every male pornstar in history is a rapist because the woman's consent was bought and not freely given?

b) What about mainstream/narrative cinema actresses? If a female Hollywood star only consents to a sex scene on the condition of receiving a paycheck for the role, does that mean they're being sexually assaulted when they perform a scene in which they're kissed/touched sexually? Does this mean male Hollywood actors who partake in these scenes are sexual assaulters?

...Surely not! But again, if all prostitution automatically equals rape, then how and where do we draw the line?

Is prostitution rape? | Mumsnet

I've seen posters referring to prostitution as rape on here and I am interested to hear the reasoning. I am undecided on the issue as I have not r...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3012135-Is-prostitution-rape

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Ahsoka2001 · 10/06/2024 11:45

Malvarrosa · 10/06/2024 05:38

I'm not a proponent of exactly the view you describe, but I feel like I have to say WTF when you start with rape and then immediately ask What about female pornstars? What about mainstream/narrative cinema actresses?

You certainly can find porn, and you probably have, that's people having consensual sex and sharing the images/sounds with the world. And you can also find porn where the sex is consensual but not every participant agreed to have it made public, which is likely illegal in many jurisdictions, but is nit classified as "rape".

But when it comes to commercial "cinema", including porn ... the people involved aren't having sex. It's simulated. If there's something out of the ordinary going on where someone is actually forced or coerced to perform the sex act they're simulating - yes, of fucking course it's rape! How is this a question?

I don't know the law in all of the countries of the UK very well, but in the USA there have been successful rape cases where someone decides to take advantage of a sex scene to actually try to "have sex". So yes, again: that's rape.

As far as actors simulating the run-up to sex, or acts that could be considered sexual assault in another context, why would this be a crime any more than an actor simulating being shot or strangled? Are you even asking those questions?

I never said anything in my post about situations where Hollywood actresses are coerced/forced to perform a sexual scene. I was talking about when they consent but it’s under the implicit condition that they’re paid for it.

I know commercial cinema doesn’t involve real sex. That’s why I gave the examples of kissing and sexual touching - which do happen for real on mainstream film sets.

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Ahsoka2001 · 10/06/2024 11:41

StopStartStop · 10/06/2024 09:02

a) What about female pornstars?
Rape
b) What about mainstream/narrative cinema actresses?
Rape
Does this mean male Hollywood actors who partake in these scenes are sexual assaulters?
Yes. As are the people who set up these situations.

In 100% of cases?? Even if the female partaking in the porn doesn’t consider for one second that she’s been raped

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Ahsoka2001 · 10/06/2024 11:38

SpringerFall · 10/06/2024 02:19

Who has the right to speak for these women?

That is one thing worrying me these days is people who think it is a modern and acceptable thing to think they have the right to speak for others, thinking things like 'you are doing feminism wrong because you are not doing it the way I say' is no different to they way people acted in the past

People should be free to act in ways they choose without being told they are doing it 'wrong'

Agreed

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Ahsoka2001 · 10/06/2024 11:38

Christinapple · 10/06/2024 02:13

Shouldn't it be up to the adult sexworkers themselves? I personally don't think non sexworkers should be deciding consent on their behalf?

I absolutely agree but a couple posters on the threads I linked were honestly arguing that it’s rape even if the sex worker doesn’t realise incredibly

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StopStartStop · 10/06/2024 09:02

a) What about female pornstars?
Rape
b) What about mainstream/narrative cinema actresses?
Rape
Does this mean male Hollywood actors who partake in these scenes are sexual assaulters?
Yes. As are the people who set up these situations.

LilyBartsHatShop · 10/06/2024 09:01

There was also that film made, maybe about ten years ago? One of those male auteur's vision of lesbianism films. Interviews with the actors who played the two main characters described what I would call coercion to perform violent sex acts (on each other). I can't remember if any criminal or civil case occurred against the director. I think it was in France.

LilyBartsHatShop · 10/06/2024 08:59

I saw a Canadian documentary made about 20 years ago that followed the story of a sex positive liberal feminist who decided to volunteer as part of the Canadian censorship body - the ones who decide whether pornographic films will be allowed distribution.
She goes in all too-cool-for-school and down on censorship. Then you see her being worn under the grind of watching hours and hours of video footage of teenaged young women being as-close-to-raped-as-possible-to-still-be-granted-distribution-rights. Really horrendous, like a jerking motion of the head that the producer would argue was the model giving consent for the painful direction the sex then takes.
(Things are very different now that videos are all distributed via internet, but I doubt that's changed things for the better re. consent and consent-lite).

simmertime · 10/06/2024 06:23

I don't like the ferm "pornstar". It glamorizes what is a pretty ugly and brutalising business. But yes, I think much commercially-made porn is footage of rape, and that some of the participants are rapists, and others are themselves being raped or sexually assaulted.

Mainstream or Hollywood sex scenes do not involve real sex any more than a fight scene involves real violence. The actors are acting, and they are nowadays very closely supervised and supported to do so in a way they feel comfortable with. Historically, of course there were abuses and some actresses were raped or sexually assaulted.

Malvarrosa · 10/06/2024 05:38

I'm not a proponent of exactly the view you describe, but I feel like I have to say WTF when you start with rape and then immediately ask What about female pornstars? What about mainstream/narrative cinema actresses?

You certainly can find porn, and you probably have, that's people having consensual sex and sharing the images/sounds with the world. And you can also find porn where the sex is consensual but not every participant agreed to have it made public, which is likely illegal in many jurisdictions, but is nit classified as "rape".

But when it comes to commercial "cinema", including porn ... the people involved aren't having sex. It's simulated. If there's something out of the ordinary going on where someone is actually forced or coerced to perform the sex act they're simulating - yes, of fucking course it's rape! How is this a question?

I don't know the law in all of the countries of the UK very well, but in the USA there have been successful rape cases where someone decides to take advantage of a sex scene to actually try to "have sex". So yes, again: that's rape.

As far as actors simulating the run-up to sex, or acts that could be considered sexual assault in another context, why would this be a crime any more than an actor simulating being shot or strangled? Are you even asking those questions?

Pixiesgirl · 10/06/2024 02:47

I think it's a bit infantilising to call it rape on behalf of people who would disagree. I think it's this high handed approach that puts people off feminism and gets some people accused of prejudice. Just assuming that "these people" can't possibly understand the issues and the consequences.

It's all an exercise in futility anyway.

SpringerFall · 10/06/2024 02:19

Who has the right to speak for these women?

That is one thing worrying me these days is people who think it is a modern and acceptable thing to think they have the right to speak for others, thinking things like 'you are doing feminism wrong because you are not doing it the way I say' is no different to they way people acted in the past

People should be free to act in ways they choose without being told they are doing it 'wrong'

Christinapple · 10/06/2024 02:13

Shouldn't it be up to the adult sexworkers themselves? I personally don't think non sexworkers should be deciding consent on their behalf?

ErrolTheDragon · 09/06/2024 22:23

In the case of mainstream actresses perhaps consider the power balance and think about the Harvey Weinstein type of coercion?

Ahsoka2001 · 09/06/2024 22:20

ArseholeCatIsABlackAndWhiteCat · 09/06/2024 22:16

Why do you need a line to be drawn?

I don't.

These are just 2 questions that came to mind as I was reading the threads and rather than resurrect a zombie thread I thought I'd make a new one.

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ArseholeCatIsABlackAndWhiteCat · 09/06/2024 22:19

Also, rather ironic that you chose two other industries that arse rife with abuse ,coercion and yes, rape.

ArseholeCatIsABlackAndWhiteCat · 09/06/2024 22:16

Why do you need a line to be drawn?

Thelnebriati · 09/06/2024 22:11

Is sex like other things?
What other jobs require you to take part of someone else inside you, to risk catching an STD or falling pregnant?
Is the Hollywood actress able to refuse to consent, and tell them to use a body double? Or is she coerced to do something that makes her uncomfortable?

Defenestre · 09/06/2024 22:04

What's the rationale behind the idea that consent cannot be bought?

It clearly is bought for many other things, so I don't understand why that would be so.