To those who consider prostitution rape...

The “happy hooker” is the predatory left wing version of the narrative where the predatory right wing version is immoral harlot.

I suspect if for one year every case of prostitution the world over was recorded as either sex worker in enslaved/manipulated/unwilling set up; drug addict or independent worker, the percentage of cases in the first two categories would be huge and the last category would be way less than 1%.

^absolutely

Most prostitutes are in the "sex for food" camp not the "millionaire offering them millions" camp.

Julie Bindel has written a lot about this topic. For example: https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/the-sex-worker-myth/

Where do you draw the line?

If you look at famous film stars and millionaires, they are often in their 70's with a girlfriend who is in her 20's. It's obvious that those women don't fancy the guy - they want his money and privilege, and sleeping with him is the trade off.

There are thousands of women, up and down the land, who marry men who they are not in love with, but who they know will take care of them financially. Those couples ae also having sex.

What about women who stay with husbands they no longer love, because they don't want to downgrade their life style?

Its not up to anyone to label anyone else, unless there is a clear attack taking place.

So they would do this for no pay?

Do you believe they would partake for free?

Given a different job that paid roughly the same, would these women still be in porn?

What other job requires one to swap bodily fluids inside body cavities?

Health and safety would ban the whole lot.

A consultant would rather be with their family, but they are offering their mind and time in exchange for money

Ah go on a consultant and a sex worker is a false equivalence. A consultant brings esteem, a sense of purpose, social status.

A sex work risks their health, ends up having sex with a lot of scum bags who are the type to pay for sex, are almost universally psychologically negatively impacted by the experience with none of the esteem building of medicine. Straw man.

In 100% of cases?? Even if the female partaking in the porn doesn’t consider for one second that she’s been raped
100%. Study Nordic Model Now.
Bear in mind the societal pressure on women and girls, the effects of previous abuse and trauma. Women and girls who present as 'volunteers' are already damaged. They need protection, not exploitation.

Are OF girls forced into it? Many celebrities who have already made millions set them up for extra money. Is this not just using what you've been given, like a singer's voice, or an athlete's legs?

Are the 'yacht girls' forced? Are Leonardo DiCaprio's girlfriend's forced? You're telling me that girls of this beauty are poor and have run out of all other options? They are willingly offering their bodies in exchange for a lot of money and status. Why is a sexual barter different than a time or mind barter? A consultant would rather be with their family, but they are offering their mind and time in exchange for money. Those arguing that its disgusting and they're unhappy, so it must be rape... how do you ever truly know if someone 'wants' to be with you? Maybe you've gained a few pounds, gotten unfit and ugly, and your partner is staying because of the kids, because you earn well, because they want you happy... but they hate it. You get their body, mind, and soul in exchange for money, security etc. (Wild extrapolation, I know)

I'm not making a case either way. I'm making some wild arguments, im just saying it's not clear-cut, and i respect both sides. There are so many caveats, and I definitely agree it swings more to the dodgy side. At what point does it go from desperation to opportunity? I mean, if I had no money and some hideous thing said they'd give me £50 for food in exchange for sex, yes, it's coercion, rape etc... but how many people would turn down sex with Boris Johnson for a million pounds? (Bad example)

If women were able to choose a different way to earn cash, would they still choose prostitution?
You can't say its a choice unless there is a choice. 'Earn something a bad way or earn nothing' is not a choice.

Erm…what? Prostitution is legal in England and Wales, what do you mean?

It is, but only if you don't actually think about it/apply any reasonable standards to it. It meets no labour laws (therefore explicitly can't be work), and consent must be freely given and the person must have the capacity to do so.

We don't allow people to purchase consent in other situations such as organ or blood donation.

I'd suggest the most similar are drugs trials or combat sports, which have significantly more safeguarding around them.

If prostitution could meet H&S regulations (it can't) and have similar levels of regulation and safeguarding, then I would concede that consent is freely given by a person with capacity. In the current setup, it's impossible, therefore consent cannot be freely given, and so it's rape.

The obvious issue to me, is that a huge number of sex workers are controlled and enslaved. They are not prostituting themselves through choice. Nor do they keep the money paid by men for sex with them. In every instance like this, prostitution is rape.

If a woman chooses to sell sex on her own terms, charging a fee she feels is a fair rate, if she is doing so to earn a living, not to fund a drug habit (in which case she'd be of unsound mind while making the decision) and if she keeps her earnings, or chooses to pay an amount to a protector who she employs, then I'd argue that isn't rape. Though it would be interesting to know how many of these women have no other choice economically, and are opting for sex work as a quick way to earn enough to feed their families without working impossibly long hours and paying the vast majority of their income in childcare.

I suspect if for one year every case of prostitution the world over was recorded as either sex worker in enslaved/manipulated/unwilling set up; drug addict or independent worker, the percentage of cases in the first two categories would be huge and the last category would be way less than 1%.

E.g.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-66404346.amp

I'm always a bit suspicious of the "happy hooker" type posters and what their motivation is.

It is illegal to traffic women and pimp them out. Many prostitutes in this country are modern day slaves. The men that use them are raping them. The "happy hooker" narrative legitimises rape of those women. It only benefits rapists.

There are circumstances that drive and motivate women towards sex work. Not ever once is the circumstance a healthy self esteem developed with largely healthy childhood relationships free of childhood trauma or no genetic mental health/personality disorder. The reality is that lots of the stuff that affects people’s development in their early years goes largely unnoticed as trauma so they don’t even understand it to be that themselves. There is a production company who interviews people who have ended up as addicts and often prostitutes on skid row and loads of them describe excellent early childhoods but they also go on to describe significant trauma which clearly they don’t recognise as trauma. Sex work involves trauma to get you there and trauma while you do it. Buying consent is not part of the conversation for me. It is more nuanced than that.

An acted sex scene in a film where there is no actual sex e.g. no penetration is not and cannot be rape. It is also not equivalent to porn.

I think both porn sex and prostituted sex have a high incidence of rape. There are a lot of women trafficked into it in both sectors and exploited.

I'm more concerned about the men who don't care and are happy to get their kick either watching women potentially being raped, or actually raping women themselves.

I'd suggest you watch "hot girls wanted" on Netflix.

But what gives people the right to decide on the sex workers behalf that they’re a rape victim? Assuming they’re an adult and fully capable of consenting (ie not under the influence of drugs or mentally ill etc) then they're capable of deciding that for themselves, surely?

The law...

There's loads of stuff that you are legally unable to consent to. This is one of them.

I don’t accept or use the term “sex worker” or “pornstar”.
Prostitution is not a job. Porn does not need glamourising with the added word star.
I despair of the rise of “pornstar martinis”. It is all normalising a world which at it’s heart damages women both those within and without.
I read the recent AMA “cam girl” thread but couldn’t bring myself to comment. The OP had already denied any effect of what she does on women in general and there seemed little point in bashing my head against the wall.
As regards mainstream actresses I was recently reading an account by a well known actress (can’t remember who) talking about the pressure to be nude and participate in sex scenes. It sounded horrible. Almost always the female body much more on show than the male too of course.

Why are so many women in the sex industry either abuse survivors or trafficking victims?
Where are all the happy women who leave the industry with a great pension pot or stack of savings?

Don't ask feminists to support an industry thats built on sexual abuse.

Assuming they’re an adult and fully capable of consenting

So how many sex workers do you know to be in this situation where they are totally free to say no without any harm coming to them?

So we are doing the "happy hooker" thing again and ignoring the fact that women and children are trafficked into sex work.

I'm sure if they said "actually, no not today" that they would be totally free to do so.

Actresses are not 'partaking' in either porn or sex. They are getting paid to do it.
If they wouldn't do it without the money, is it consensual sex?

The question is, do they have a choice or do they need the money? Has being paid for sex been this normalised for women that you can't see the problem any more?
Why do people need to see the end product, what drives the market for it?

I absolutely agree but a couple posters on the threads I linked were honestly arguing that it’s rape even if the sex worker doesn’t realise incredibly

Lots of people have lots of things done to them that they don't realise are criminal. And those things don't even involve putting other people's body parts inside them for pay. The circumstances of the act are what make it rape, not how people feel about it.

Although of course that's not true - actually only the man's feelings matter - the test is if he could reasonably assume he has consent. Doesn't matter what the woman thinks at all.

Prostituted women can have all the sex they like, no judgement there. What makes it rape is that they don't want to have this sex, they're only doing it because they are being paid.

What makes it worse, is that these prostituted women don't even have basic health and safety implemented, even in countries where it's legalised.

I do believe that sex is probably different to other things. I don't believe that "sex work is work" in the sense that modern branches of feminism believe, for example. Sex workers are victims of their circumstances, and sex work is one of the things people resort to in desperation.

However, I think this is a different question to one of rape, and of consent. There are plenty of things I would do for money that I wouldn't consider doing for free. I have done things many times during the course of my employment that I find actively uncomfortable. But I still consented to do those things in return for money.

There is plenty of evidence in the broad church of feminism that all sex with men is rape in one way or another because women are exploited under the patriarchy. I don't agree with that sentiment, but can see how including this concept to cover sex work is just an extension of this oppressed/ oppressor dynamic.