To those who consider prostitution rape...

one of only a handful of charities across the UK that supports these men, trying to keep them safe, says: "When we speak to sex workers about when they first got involved in sex work, the phrase we hear most often is, 'I started when I was 14 or 15,'" she says.
"That's not sex work, that's child exploitation."

Surprise .. surprise.

‘Mainly’ and ‘Most’ imply women are also buying sex, albeit in smaller quantities.

Are they rapists too?

Most of the men who prostitute themselves are having paid sex with other men, not with women.

"I see mainly single men," says Daniel.

https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-42265838

Huh? I didn't bring up abortion. You did.

I confess that I am finding your line of reasoning hard to follow at times. You're all over the place, jumping from subject to subject. So I can't formulate much of a response. Your central hypothesis is that bodily autonomy is an illusion, but I can't quite figure out why you believe that. Can you clarify?

Your last point, however, was very clear and I don't disagree.

It is estimated there are as many as 100,000 sex workers across the UK, and about 20% of them are male. Some of these men see their work as a positive choice, but for the most vulnerable it can be little more than a means to survive.13 Dec 2017

From the BBC I'll link if needed.

Also from 2017 so out of date now but I've gotta go out soon and cant spare the time to trawl through much to find definitive data.

But it shows not nearly as many men are prostitutes as women.

It's not. Because you will actually find people that are happy with their child being a cleaner, even hoping that for them (for various reasons), whereas you won't find one parent that would do the same for prostitution.

@Thelnebriati ,

They do. The numbers are smaller, but plenty do.

Also, I never claimed it was empowering, that is a total straw man argument.

There was a thread on here a while ago by a woman who hadn’t had sex for years and wanting to purchase good sex with a handsome younger guy, and there were plenty of replies.

So, the ‘would you be happy with your daughter selling sex for money’ is a bit of a lame argument.

No it isn't.
Why don't men do it, if its so well paid and empowering?

Do you really think a single parent looks down at their baby and envisages them cleaning for a living. I am 100% certain that is not what you want for your children!

you think we look at our babies and want them to go into prostitution?

Really?

Ffs some of us with disabled children would be more than happy if they cleaned for a living or worked at some other menial job.
I'd be over the fucking moon if my disabled child got a job full stop.

Someone has to do these menial jobs, its usually left to women anyway, because child rearing, and part time hours are often in menial roles.
I'd prefer my child to work pot washing or McDonalds or cleaning than prostitution.

@ArseholeCatIsABlackAndWhiteCat ,

‘Does anyone look at their baby and hope they become a prostitute? ‘

That is kind of my point. There are loads of unpleasant menial jobs that, as parents, we don’t see our children doing. We all want our children to end up as doctors, in academia or doing a well paid professional job.

So, the ‘would you be happy with your daughter selling sex for money’ is a bit of a lame argument..

Does anyone look at their baby and hope they become a prostitute?

Come on.

One issue with it is that while prostitution is legal, it can still be grounds for deportation for example, which leaves a lot of vulnerable women (a high number of prostitutes are immigrants) at significant risk. The scope is too small and it doesn't apply to all agencies involved.

Only if you look down on prostitution,

I look down on punters, pimps and apologists for punters and pimps.

@IHaveNeverLivedintheCastle ,

Really? Only if you look down on prostitution, which is the opposite of the Nordic model. Do you really think a single parent looks down at their baby and envisages them cleaning for a living. I am 100% certain that is not what you want for your children!

I read this argument so many times that cleaning bogs is dignified work (almost invariably by those who have cleaners), despite the fact 90% of cleaners are women and I doubt many of them really enjoy it.

I am not looking for a ‘gotcha’ unlike you. I don’t think there is a simple solution, but I don’t think using a prostitute is rape, despite never having used one.

I do believe in strong regulation and careful management, but I also think it is totally unrealistic and a massive own goal to try to make it illegal.

So why do you want prostitution to continue?

I want women to never have to consider prostitution as a way to make money because they have either enough money from benefits or a decent job, even a cleaning job if that's what they want.

And i was a cleaner for many years. No one asked if I'd give them a blow job, or if they could wank in or on me. Funny that. And I got paid holidays and some sick pay and other benefits like death in service and a pension.

You telling me prostitutes get all that?

Newbutoldfather
@Bodeganights @Thelnebriati ,

Does making something illegal tend to stop it or criminalise it and make it even more hazardous? Do you actually care about this or just want to win an argument.

Deaths among sex workers are reduced in places where the Nordic Model has been introduced.
Sex trafficking in women and children increases in places where sex work is legal.

Those are both checkable facts, not ''sound bites''. The Nordic Model aims to reduce demand among sex buyers - men.

I am glad you and your husband are in such accord, you must have a very happy marriage. I assume you don’t have a cleaner then? Or do you think they would come and brush your bogs out for the sheer joy of it?

Oh that's a good one. Never heard that before. Earning a living by being a cleaner is no different from earning a living by having punters wanking into or over you. What a gotcha.

Yes I do have a cleaner. I have a gardener as well. I've employed various people over the years to help us around the house. It's incredibly offensive to all of them to compare what they do to being just the same as being in prostitution.

@Bodeganights @Thelnebriati ,

Does making something illegal tend to stop it or criminalise it and make it even more hazardous? Do you actually care about this or just want to win an argument.

‘It's a subject we've discussed along with surrogacy. In some ways my husband is a simple soul. I assume from your name you're a man ? My husband just can't get his head round, in the case of prostitution, how he, or any other man can delude themselves that a woman wants to have sex, but only if you pay her.’

I am glad you and your husband are in such accord, you must have a very happy marriage. I assume you don’t have a cleaner then? Or do you think they would come and brush your bogs out for the sheer joy of it?

Yes, that is simplistic and I am aware sex and cleaning aren’t the same. But, you either call a nuanced argument a ‘word salad’ or you have to argue in simple sound bites….

On a more practical basis, there is a lot of debate on whether it has actually made ‘working girls’ safer or the reverse.

There is absolutely no debate about whether or not prostitution has made life better or worse for women and girls. Everywhere it has been legalised it has led to an increase in sex trafficking, and the sex trafficking of underage children.
Living in or passing through a red light district is awful.
WHO report that globally, female sex workers are estimated to be 30 times more likely to be living with HIV than other women of reproductive age.

On a more practical basis, there is a lot of debate on whether it has actually made ‘working girls’ safer or the reverse.

then let's just make prostitution illegal. End it all. It serves only men, and I'd be quite happy to never see another woman in prostitution.

The Nordic model criminalises the purchase of sex while completely decriminalising its sale, for the benefit of people who think its something else.

I have no idea how anyone thinks thats bad for autonomy and I'm not looking forwards to reading the word salad.

What I would like to see is at least adequate social support, mental and physical health care, addiction support ,proper wages etc. Only then we can debate choice .

What I would like to see is putting responsibility on the punters so they are legally responsible if they rape women and children who have been trafficked or coerced or under the influence. Mandatory reporting too if they suspect, so they can't fucking post reviews of "do not recommend" when they suspect things aren't quite right ,but go ahead anyways and then complain about the faulty "product". No excuses.

What I would like to see is more work in identifying trafficked and abused women and children, rescuing them regardless of where they're from (Scotland anyone?) and putting serious work in to rehabilitate them and reintegrate them into society.

Then yeah, we can talk about choice and Suzie who loves shagging sooo much she made it into a profession where she's earning millions and living her best life.

Have you read any of the comments about autonomy?

I'm in favour of the Nordic Model. My husband is in favour of the Nordic Model.

It's got nothing to do with the "hierarchy of victimhood" (whatever that soundbite means)

It's a subject we've discussed along with surrogacy. In some ways my husband is a simple soul. I assume from your name you're a man ? My husband just can't get his head round, in the case of prostitution, how he, or any other man can delude themselves that a woman wants to have sex, but only if you pay her.

(In the case of surrogacy, the notion that it might be acceptable just baffles him)

I don't think any civilised person can defend prostitution.