Diane Abbott to be banned from standing for Labour

The very fact that you suggest antisemitic racism is 'contentious' suggests you're dismissing or downplaying it.

Even ignoring the Holocaust (which is kind of hard to ignore especially as it is still within living memory for some people), antisemitism has been an issue in the UK for a long time. I've included a link below from before the Hamas terrorist attacks in October last year and the following conflict, although that issue also highlights the serious problem of antisemitic racism because antisemitic hate crime has shot up since then (and regardless of anyone's views on the ME conflict, most British Jews are British, not Israeli).

https://www.statista.com/chart/16928/antisemitic-incidents-in-the-uk-annual/

I was specifically stating that.

On anti-Irish Catholic racism in Britain " ...but compared to what I thin[k black people and travellers face, I would say it is trivial."

I avoided including antisemitic racism as bundling it in together being contentious is another point. At some point, read what is written.

Gypsy, Roma and Traveller (GRT) people are the most disadvantaged of all ethnic groups in society.

Negative media portrayals of GRT fuel racism and discrimination towards these groups in which they continue to be demonised.

https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/77169/html/

I'd say suggesting antisemitic racism, and anti Traveller racism as "reaching" proves the point that those groups very real experiences of racism is too often downplayed and dismissed.

No one said that anti semitism is trivial.
I stated my own experience but that was in the context of me not knowing the full story. The point was the experience of Irish Catholics in Britain (as opposed to the UK) is benign. We do not have armed guards for our Churches.
There is a point at which you have to stop reaching.

I wouldn't say Jewish places of worship (and now, from what I understand, schools) needing security "trivial". I have Jewish friends and their synagogues have needed security for decades (it's provided by members of their community, not by the state). Also I'd say there's potentially unconscious antisemitism in your post (I'm sure unintended). It subtly implies all Jewish people are rich and have jobs as bankers etc. The Jewish people I know are far from rich. Quite the opposite.

The Holocaust is also still in living memory and many Jewish people in the UK today lost relatives when it happened.

Separately wasn't Diane Abbott refering to Travellers rather than Irish people in general (and not all Travellers are Irish Travellers). They absolutely have suffered from huge prejudice. I understand studies have found they're one of the most discriminated against groups in the UK, and the Roma were also victims of the Nazis.

I will write from my own experience which only goes back to the 1970s.
Firstly, I specified Britain rather than UK. In the context of this thread, I had a discussion with two Jewish people who argued the discrimination they suffered (which seemed to amount to some banks in the city being less liely to employ them) dwarfed anything suffered in Northern Ireland. That is clearly daft.
In my lifetime, it has effectively ebbed dramatically. If anything, this this largely atheist society, being a Church going Catholic is almost more "normal" than being a Church going Protestant. I remember remarks, but they often struck me as silly. I had a lad in one of my rugby teams who was a paid up member of the UVF and he was silly and naive (though also a football hooligan). I had a good friend who married a lady whose family were very Orange Lodge in Glasgow and was wary of me being Catholic. But we get on great.
I am aware here that I am dismissive of things that might be considered serious in other contexts, but compared to what I thin black people and travellers face, I would say it is trivial..

In the context of Britain, anti Irish Catholic racism is trivial (speaking as one). It does happen but it is just not a significant part of the culture.

It has ebbed and flowed between colonisation, massacres, arguably genocides, demonisation, dehumanisation, patronising, tolerance, amusement and nothing.
Some Irish people in Britain escaped it, some suffered and died because of it, there's no single experience.

It's under the surface, but it's mostly to do with a long, very long anti-Irish history and a widespread refusal to acknowledge that fact - or indeed have even a basic knowledge of the historical relationship between our islands.
Contextual mention of objective facts about centuries of British atrocities in Ireland is often greeted with an eye-roll, oh here we go again, what about the IRA, will 'you people' ever let go of the past etc etc.

The culture of denial is still significant, and unfortunately DA's letter contributed to that culture.

I think they look the opposite of shambolic. The Angela Rayner's house debacle just shows how desperate the Tories are to discredit them, if Labour were shambolic the Tories would not need to make stuff up.

We will see after the GE.

Maybe if you read the post again you’d see I’m talking about the bigger picture over the last 50 years or so. The Tories still managed to win the last election and hold onto nearly a full term in government, despite their internal chaos. That’s some achievement. Whereas Labour are in danger of throwing away a landslide into a more ordinary win and are coasting in on the FPTP system we have that virtually guarantees they will form the next election. They look shambolic, they are shambolic and rolling out Wes Streeting to look like an over eager NUS President at every opportunity won’t paper over the cracks when they start having to actually govern.

Totally agree @CassieMaddox!

The Tories keep their eyes on the prize and are disciplined and ruthless when they want to be (see Mrs T being dispatched as PM) - whereas Labour are much more susceptible to purity spirals and appalling HR processes

😂
The Tories have had 3 prime ministers in the last 4 years, 2 unelected and are currently tearing themselves apart trying to appease the right wing. We got Brexit because of Tory infighting. Sunaks comms team appear to be doing their utmost to make him look like a plonker. "Disciplined and ruthless" 😂

I think this shows that Starmer doesn’t have the public control over the Labour Party that Blair did in 1997. What this means when it comes to forming a government we’ll see in July. Both Labour and Conservatives have lots of internal factions and in-fighting, but for whatever reason Conservatives have generally been much better over the last 50 years at holding the party line in public. The Tories keep their eyes on the prize and are disciplined and ruthless when they want to be (see Mrs T being dispatched as PM) - whereas Labour are much more susceptible to purity spirals and appalling HR processes. It pains me to say it but the shambolic approach to discipline within Labour doesn’t appear to have changed significantly from the Derek Hatton days.

Regarding Diane specifically - she’s been treated badly, especially when you consider she’s a senior trail blazing, well respected MP. However, I also saw her on the news and came to the conclusion that she is not a well woman like other posters. But I think in her mind and the minds of her supporters that she’s been forced into standing again by these events to protect her reputation and legacy. I also think Labour leadership thought she’d step back/retire due to health and thus the disciplinary over the letter would then just go away, rather than blowing up in their faces (see previous paragraph about them always being bad at this).

I have been aware of antiJewish racism in the USA and it confused and shocked me. The letter was in the context of the UK.
In the context of Britain, anti Irish Catholic racism is trivial (speaking as one). It does happen but it is just not a significant part of the culture.

*Solrock" · 31/05/2024 08:35

One of the offensive details of Diane Abbott's letter is the degree to which it is ignorant of and minimizes real, historical persecution.

Right up the the 80s, many American golf clubs had "No Jews" rules. I seem to remember more recently that private members clubs had the same rule.

You're right about historical and modern slavery worldwide.

I thought you were referring to the claim that the Irish were slaves the way Africans were slaves in the West Indies and the USA, which is historically inaccurate, and is used by racists in the US to minimise the effects of slavery on African-Americans up to the present day, e.g. 'The Irish were slaves too, and you don't see them claiming reparations'.
I hate to see Irish history hijacked like that; as I said in my previous post, our history has enough disasters and horrors without claiming we were victims of the Transatlantic slave trade as well.

I understand now that that's not the specific kind of slavery you were referring to, so sorry for jumping in!

To a large extent, it concerns the legacy we live with today.
There are people alive today who knew people who were slaves in the USA and it maintained segregation until the 1960s.
While the Barbary pirates took slaves, it has very little impact on the Cornish population of today.

@MarieDeGournay You misunderstand me. When I say 'taken as slaves' I mean just that.

People seem to have short memories when it comes to historic events. The Jews were enslaved in Egypt. The Ottoman Empire was the biggest taker and user of slaves - vastly out-numbering anything white people did in more recent times.

There are more slaves in this country today and worldwide than ever were in previous times.

It serves no one to gloss over these things.

Maybe, or maybe it was a comms SNAFU? Who knows

Of course they would. How would the Lisa Nandys of the party be expected to defend labour’s position otherwise? It would be cringeworthy.

Ah they've caved in, interesting.

I agree, but it costs me nothing as an Irish person to acknowledge that being a white Irish person in the UK is a different experience from being Black.

There are 'fads' in these things, and us Irish are no longer No. 1 in the Hate Parade - believe me, I remember vividly when we were, when 'That's a bit Irish' meant stupid, and we lived under the threat of arrest, imprisonment, or death just for being Irish - 'innocent until proven Irish'.
So I would never argue with Diane Abbot that anti-Black racism is a different, more obvious, more direct experience than what I experience[d].

But it was offensive of her to suggest that the Irish experience is on the same level as red-haired people - glossing over centuries of colonisation, ethnic-cleansing, and massacres that could, under the current use of the word 'genocide', be classified as genocides - yes, plural, not just the Great Hunger.
And she should have paused to ask herself why having red hair is seen as negative - hint: which ethnic group has the most red-heads?

It also costs me nothing and detracts in no way from my history to say that Irish people were not slaves. They were ethnically-cleansed and transported to the West Indies and the USA to work in horrific conditions - but as indentured servants, not as 'chattel slaves', they were not owned, they were able to gain their freedom eventually, if they had children, their children were born free.

I'm OK with leaving the term 'slavery' to describe what happened specifically to African slaves, and the term 'holocaust' to what happened to the Jewish people [primarily], Irish history has its own terminology and its own horrors.

Diane Abbott will be Labour candidate for Hackney.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-69078711

I saw a thread last night where a poster on MN had received a racist private message. Several PPs strongly noted that it's not for other people to dismiss or downplay someone's experience of racism, and said it was not up to other people to decide or tell someone that they overreacted or 'misunderstood' when it comes to what is perceived to be racism. It struck me this reasoning doesn't always seem to apply to Jewish people or Travellers. It should.

Cross posted with timenowplease who makes the same point as me.