Diane Abbott to be banned from standing for Labour

@Sweden99 - seems you need an editor of your posts 🙄

As an aside, can anyone remember a British crime series where Travellers were part of the storyline where the Travellers were not depicted as feckless, violent criminals?

Sweden99 · Today 08:16

In the context of Britain, anti Irish Catholic racism is trivial (speaking as one). It does happen but it is just not a significant part of the culture.

Anyone perceived as Irish was looked down on in the 50s. My dad's dad was Northern Irish Protestant and my dad got called a "Paddy" and a "Mick" etc. In England, people from the two sides stuck together in many cases, as they had the same prejudice.

My mam's mam was Northern Irish Catholic, but brought up on the continent from a young age and didn't get any of it, as she went to a private convent school and didn't have an Irish accent. In any case, at the schools she went to when they moved to Britain had a lot of Irish nuns.

Ok so.

Becauae she made things up.

Right so.. You could have saved yourself a load of hassle and said to yourself 'My own direct impression of not experiencing any racism as an Irish person is probably a bad guide to understanding other peoples journey so maybe I'll hould me whist here and refrain from posting nonsense on this thread'.

You have a cheek to tell @whatab to calm down.

Originally, to suggest that our own direct impressions are a bad guide.

What was the point of sharing this information of your own personal experience? It serves no purpose other than to cast aspersions on claims to the contrary.

Yes. Indeed. And thanks,
I really do not think there is much anti-Irish Catholic prejudice in Britain at all. Our Catholic school in Britain was evacuated once with a bomb scare (during the troubles) and we laughed as a Catholic British school seemed about the safest place from bombing back then.

yes, but…

To be fair to @whatab, if she genuinely thought I was writing anti-semitic racism, then she was reasonable to object.

Separately, why is another poster claiming that comparing antisemitic racism to other forms of racism is 'contentious'?

assuming this is a genuine question, because the whole point of the controversy around DA’s letter was the ranking of different forms of racism against each other.

To be clear, all forms of racism are abhorrent, however the origins, context and outworkings of racism against different groups such as Travellers, Jews, Black, Irish, and/or Asian people mean that blanket platitudes, statements and solutions run the danger of causing more offence due to their ignorance. By which I mean the assumption that the default is white, British and Protestants, and anyone else can be categorised as “other”. One poster has tried to share their experience of racism as a Catholic Irish person and been honest about their lack of awareness of other forms of prejudice when they were younger and received aggressive, critical posts for it - from you!

So yes, you’ve proved the very point that that poster was trying to make. It can be contentious trying to push different forms of racism together, because the moment you discuss one form of racism someone will jump in with a load of whataboutery about another form.

I did refer to not having seen first hand anti-semitism in the UK. This was not to say it does not exist, my personal experience does not equate to a greater reality! Many people do not believe in things they do not see themselves but I am not one of those people. I perhaps could have emphasized this more strongly.

I think if @whatab re reads the posts she will find that perhaps she has misunderstood @Sweden99?

It’s easy to become so entrenched in your pov that you cannot see what the other person is saying no matter the repetition or reframing their point.

I think you should calm it.
You should read properly and apologise.

Calm what? I assume it's best if I disengage now though as I don't think you're willing to acknowledge my points and we're obviously not going to agree on this. I don't have time to get into an argument, nor do I want to.

Imagine though if your quoted post was about any other form of racism, rather than racism towards Travellers or Jewish people. Saying "just calm it" comes across dismissing or denying it. I'm not Jewish or a Traveller so perhaps it's not for me to comment but I believe all forms of racism are wrong. Equally wrong.

As for apologies. I'm not DA but I understand that she has already apologised.

I think you should calm it.
You should read properly and apologise.

Many times, when racism towards other groups, rather than Jewish people or Travellers, is mentioned, many posters write that it's not for other people to tell the person who has experienced racism that "they're making it up" or "exaggerating" or "seeing offence when it isn't there". I don't know why but for some reason that argument doesn't always seem to be applied when the victim is Jewish or a Traveller. All racism should be equally condemned and none should be deemed worse than another.

On a separate but related note, as I mentioned earlier on this thread, some people are both black and Jewish.

The OP referenced a letter by DA to The Observer. From the OP (and the Times article OP linked)
in which she likened the discrimination suffered by Jewish people, the Irish and Travellers to the bullying of redheads

So DA did mention Travellers separately from Irish people.

Separately, why is another poster claiming that comparing antisemitic racism to other forms of racism is 'contentious'? What's contentious, unless those posters are dismissing, denying, or dismissing antisemitic racism?

All forms of racism, no matter which group it's directed at, are wrong. It's not something that should require comparisons. When I say comparisons, I mean suggesting that one type of racism is "less bad'" than another. I suppose the only legitimate comparison I can think of is that, although sadly all forms of racism still exist, it seems mainly antisemitic and anti-Traveller racism that is most often dismissed or downplayed or denied.

As for misreading, maybe I have but this from Sweden99 There is enough racism in this world that people should not have to make things up to be hurt. is something I've noticed being claimed whenever Jewish people mention antisemitic hate crimes and just general antisemitic sentiments. I'm not necessarily talking about MN. I mean in general on and offline. With MN, I've not been on many threads where the issues have come up. I was on this board for the feminism.

I think most posters have tried to be careful about not dismissing one group's experience, while asserting another group's.

Objecting to DA's brushing aside of certain forms of prejudice [by comparison to hair colour, and by referring to pre-Civil Rights USA, rather than the UK] is not the same as denying that there are specificities in the lived experience of various groups in society.
[BTW DA specifically referred to 'Irish people' in general, not to 'Irish Travellers']
You may have misread some posts, whatab.

@whatab I am glad you had Jewish friends. I line with my romantic life (dominated by Jewish Americans) I married a Jewish American.
No-one is saying that anti-semitism is made up. That is you lying.
I said (as you know) that comparing anti-semitism to anti-black, anti-Irish Catholic racism or anti-traveller racism can be contentious. You are also cross at me not doing it enough.

I admit I didn't understand my Jewish friends when I was younger. I was brought up in a household that condemned all forms of racism and I was quite naive. I understand more now.

The last two posts speak for themselves. Couldn't be clearer dismissal of antisemitic racism. Apparently it's "contentious" and "made up".

I'm not the type to report posts and as I'm quite new here I'm not sure of the etiquette on when to do that so if your post is reported I'm letting you know here it wasn't me.

I'd completely understand though if someone else does, although personally I think they should stay because they're a clear example of the dismissal of antisemitic racism (the dismissal imo is in itself antisemitic racism).

Thank you.
There is enough racism in this world that people should not have to make things up to be hurt.

The very fact that you suggest antisemitic racism is 'contentious' suggests you're dismissing or downplaying it.

@Sweden99 clearly says the bundling of antisemitism with other forms of racism is (or could be) contentious. Not antisemitism itself.