I thought I was transphobic

I’m not transphobic, in that I don’t run away screaming when I see my 19 year old daughter wearing men’s jeans and a hoody.
she thinks I am of course.
im not transphobic when i see a gormless vain idiot man on the make up counter and some hapless young girl obviously wishing she’d gone to a different shop.
im pretty transphobic when one comes in the loo. I wasn’t, but then that was the 80s.
i am very very very transphobic when these utter evil people peddle steroids - the sort that killed quite a few sportswomen in the 80s, to my child. Theorugh fking asda and Safeway wtaf.
And I’m fing school phobic when I think of the crap their fking lgbtys club fed my daughter and the sht they told us. Or rather didn’t tell us.

Um what? Are you asking a serious question?

One of the thing that bugs me most about 'trans people' is that they are talked about and we're supposed to think of them as some special kind of person rather than just people who enjoy wearing (some a little too much, urgh) the fashion designed for the opposite sex. All this fuss and all these stupid flags etc etc n treating them like a special caste for what is essentially clothing n make up choices.

That's grim Cuppa and, in my view, an example of a place not being inclusive!

I have very little time for clubs, societies and organisations being unaware or ignoring how there 'oh so inclusive' actions actually alienate others.

I was delighted when the CEO or my organisation demanded that everyone took down the Israeli and Palestinian flags adorning their desks and took a hard look at themselves in terms of considering what is and isn't professional in the work place!

I have no appetite to gender identity issues derailing what we are there for.

Same here, I went along to a hobbyists group. Bloke there with a stuffed bra and woman’s name, massive progress flag on the wall, trans flag in a heart shape saying “trans inclusive” on the toilet door. I could not be arsed to do anything about it, but it tainted my experience. I just squeezed my aversion back in like a good girl and got on with trying to enjoy myself.

That's not really where I'm coming from.

In many situations at work, and in my social life, gender has bugger all to do with what is happening, or needs to happen in that context.

I have no appetite to gender identity issues derailing what we are there for. Where this is the case, I will take steps to prevent it from becoming the focus. I have a number of colleagues that would love to create drama around pronouns- I'd prefer to keep us task focussed in order to deliver what is needed job wise!

I thought I had got this sorted after a rocky time with my adult children. But I am now in trouble because I said, during a conversation about Rebus that I was sad there weren't be any more Cormoran Strike adaptations.

Yes, I understand. They could be read as ‘the most practical and smooth’ options. All of them. If you chose a different way in those situations, the way forward would be rough, fraught with hassle and stress. Not the way of someone prefers peace, ease, etc, and like eyeballinthesky wants to be certain to keep their job.

Two options:

1. play along with nonsense and enjoy ease, peace, harmony, focus, security.
2. not play along with nonsense and experience tension, fragmentation, disharmony, disruption, insecurity.

"I use preferred pronouns at work too and it sticks in my throat but I don’t want to get fired. I know it’s not a fight I can win at work so I just refuse to put my pronouns in my email & don’t comment

however I’m not doing it to be kind or accommodating, I’m doing it so I don’t lose my job"

I think that's a horrendous situation to be in and I don't think anyone should be forced to use preferred pronouns.

I have worked with a couple of organisations who have, upon discussion, settled with policies whereby people can either use preferred pronouns or names, but not sex based pronouns. This hasn't pleased everyone!

No, my motivation in all of those instances was something other than wanting 'a quiet life'. I provided my reasoning in the post.

I use preferred pronouns at work too and it sticks in my throat but I don’t want to get fired. I know it’s not a fight I can win at work so I just refuse to put my pronouns in my email & don’t comment

however I’m not doing it to be kind or accommodating, I’m doing it so I don’t lose my job

Essentially wanting a quiet life. It’s like trialling going out with your legs unshaven to see what it’s like, and the stress and anxiety isn’t worth it, so a little piece inside you dies as you conform to an unfair situation.

I recently stuck a tentative toe in the water of a group, around an interest of mine and there was a bloke there, wearing a woman’s name, with a stuffed bra, being referred to as she and her. I felt offended, as a woman, but I kept shtum. Still woke up the next day feeling like I’d betrayed myself on some level for appearing to condone it.

Sorry - meant 14 year old, but I guess 24 year old still applies

Why would you feel uneasy by a 5 foot, 6stone 24 year old who identifies as a boy?

Exactly. Fear of, say, butterflies would be a phobia. Fear or dislike of men who demand the right to enter women’s single-sex spaces or take women’s sports prizes is utterly rational.

Some of my motivations for using preferred pronouns at work:

• maintaining focus on the task at hand/ not letting the session becoming derailed
• not giving someone the attention they crave for an issue that isn't relevant at that point in time
• recognising the fragility of group cohesion within a group and tackling one issue at a time, trans identities not be the most pressing one
• it isn't relevant to the nature of the group and situation

It’s not hate is it? It is manipulation. Trying to make you feel like a terrible person for not doing as you are told and pretending that down is up and up is down.

Rapidonset, that must be very distressing.

It is unacceptable that people are making inaccurate attributions about your thoughts and feelings about your child. It is clear from your post that you love them dearly and want the best for them. I can understand you feeling upset and angry about the situation.

Feeling misunderstood is very destructive, to the individuals who feel misunderstood and to the relationships with those who they feel misunderstood by.

I think the TRA element at play with gender questioning children is very pernicious. Where children and young people are not being told that 'everyone who isn't trans is against them', misunderstanding can be addressed and disagreement can be tolerated. Where bad actors are trying to sustain division, this is much harder.

My motivation is to remove and reduce divisions, where ever possible. I think this fosters a more hopeful climate for reconciling tensions and conflict.

I know you don’t want to derail (I still think pronouns are relevant to the thread), and I know men using ‘preferred pronouns’ can often have a different rationale to women (eg- bullying/dominating women with what are essentially taunts of “men make better women than women”, “look how we can take anything we like out of your hands and wave it in front of you and there’s not a thing you can do about it”, and “You have no right to be anything, anywhere or do anything without men”), but what other different motivations do people have for using a person’s preferred opposite sex pronouns in your opinion?

Reading back my last comment, it’s far more about me than I would wish. I am concerned about the path my son is treading, and where that may take him. But how to question that path, while still being kind, when any disagreement is equated with hate?

I am somewhat agog at this reply, society will fall apart if we use clear, unequivocal language.

In my view saying No is clear, there is no misunderstanding to be taken from that if they are upset by hearing it so what? Whichever way you couch it it is still No, why do we have to explain or justify it? I am actually sick of the lengths women are expected to go to to justify why they don't want any men in their toilets, changing rooms, hospital wards, prisons, refuges, etc., etc. Why do we have to do this? Why is just No not enough? It is always, always enough when men say it, they never have to explain, justify or consider any upset caused by the word, they say No it is accepted and not questioned.

I'm thinking about many threads and many posters. An example would be pronouns (I really don't want to derail this thread by starting a debate on this - I am just using it as an example!)

Some posters insist that anyone who chooses to use preferred pronouns is suffering from something akin to internalised misogyny or female socialisation whether they are conscious of this or not.

I think it is possible to have different motivations, some which are unrelated to being female.

My difficulty at the moment is that my speech and actions are interpreted as “transphobic”, “bigoted” and “hateful” because I am unable to do as I am expected to do (it is too painful to refer to my son as “she”, and this means that I don’t love him or respect him, apparently). So there is no communication, because I am not permitted to speak honestly. I am a man who has been brought up to be gentle and kind, though I do have my limits and have been known to be rude or unkind occasionally, which tends to lead to feeling depressed. I feel as if that upbringing is being weaponised against me. I must be gentle and kind, but other people are allowed to shout “bigot” at me, particularly if they say they have been abused in childhood. I am at a loss as to how to set my boundaries while still being kind and gentle; in reality I am hurt, frustrated and angry with the authoritarian ideology that tries to dictate my behaviour and thoughts. And I have it easy compared with many women.

In my original post that drew your remark:

“I’ve been more guilty of suppressing ‘rational fear’ in an attempt to be nice and accommodating.

More fool me.”

It is fairly clear I was talking about suppressing rational fear in order to be accommodating - at my own expense.

Maybe you aren’t seeing the intention/meaning in this way when you read it elsewhere on threads?

"People don’t object to others being nice and accommodating, they object to the pressure to be nice and accommodating, at the expense of oneself, for the sake of male feelings, and for this only to be expected of women, not men."

I can completely get behind objecting to this.

What I often interpret on threads is that a case is being made that it is wrong to be 'nice' and this reflects oppressed behaviour.