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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Advice please: Dreading TRA friend's visit

216 replies

BetsyBobbin · 20/05/2024 23:22

My husband has a friend from school who's coming to stay in our city this bank holiday. Although I'm friendly with her she was never my actual friend so I never knew her well.

She'll be here for four days and is staying with a gay couple whom she's friends with and who are very much part of the blue hair/alphabet soup brigade as far as I could see (she created a WhatsApp group and included all of us in, some brief conversations have been had). Outings as a large group have been organised.

She started following me on social media recently and I followed her back just to be gobsmacked by what I saw. Yes, you can guess, all the TWAW stuff.

Now, this woman is an educated person, works as a public defender and has an eight year old daughter and I just don't understand for the life of me how can someone who who works in law and has a daughter could be so captured like that (I do have theories but never mind that now).

Now, I'm staunchly GC. Having said that, I don't want to cause any drama and I'm hoping that those outings will be finished sooner than you can say "JK Rowling". BUT, if anything remotely TRA related is brought up I don't trust myself to remain silent.

I'm obviously not changing anyone's mind in a brief conversation but is there anything that I can say that could at least plant a seed of doubt in her head? I really don't want to get into long arguments trying to explain autogynephilia and what could happen to her daughter in a changing room but like I said, I don't trust myself to be quiet either.

I'm dreading this whole situation, send help please.

OP posts:
MFF2010 · 24/05/2024 13:33

Don't talk about it, I've lost a few dear friends over this and wish the conversations had just not happened. Funnily enough they're all well educated public sector types with daughters too 😭

Screamingabdabz · 24/05/2024 13:31

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ooooohnoooooo · 24/05/2024 13:25

My approach to being with people who have opposing views on this (or anything else ) is to simply, pleasantly say " well we clearly have very different options on that so let's not spoil the day by going there". And the refuse to discuss further.

Bumblebee907 · 24/05/2024 13:25

Interesting to hear how it goes

Myteenhatesme · 24/05/2024 13:19

@Christinapple

So, could you explain why "I respect every trans person’s right to live any way that feels authentic and comfortable to them. I’d march with you if you were discriminated against on the basis of being trans" is an unhinged rant for you?

MissScarletInTheBallroom · 24/05/2024 13:15

Christinapple · 24/05/2024 13:09

What if OP does a JK Rowling and goes off into an unhinged rant about trans people?

I'm looking forward to OP's next thread when they talk about how noone wants to visit anymore.

JK Rowling talks about women's rights.

Christinapple · 24/05/2024 13:09

justafleshwound2024 · 23/05/2024 04:20

Fortunately the OP didn't suggest or imply she's anti trans or any such thing and has made it clear she was looking for ways to defend and educate should the woman go off into an unhinged rant, rather than having any intention of bringing up her own standard, accepted views.

What if OP does a JK Rowling and goes off into an unhinged rant about trans people?

I'm looking forward to OP's next thread when they talk about how noone wants to visit anymore.

BetsyBobbin · 24/05/2024 12:58

So, tonight's the night, I shall report back here 🫡

OP posts:
justafleshwound2024 · 23/05/2024 04:20

Christinapple · 23/05/2024 01:58

It goes both ways.

I'm sure people who don't have gender critical views may not wish to have to listen to anti-trans diatribes.

Fortunately the OP didn't suggest or imply she's anti trans or any such thing and has made it clear she was looking for ways to defend and educate should the woman go off into an unhinged rant, rather than having any intention of bringing up her own standard, accepted views.

MyWhoHa · 23/05/2024 02:21

@Christinapple

Why mention gay rights? That has nothing to do with trans people.

MissTrip82 · 23/05/2024 02:18

Nellodee · 21/05/2024 05:55

Could you not try, “Can we avoid contentious political issues, please?” and if they push it, “I think one of the biggest problems is unthinking tribalism and the inability to tolerate differing viewpoints without shutting them down.”

I think it would be very difficult to make a statement like this with a straight face when you use silly contemptuous phrases like the ‘blue hair brigade’ as the OP does.

Avoiding the gathering is probably the best choice.

Christinapple · 23/05/2024 01:58

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It goes both ways.

I'm sure people who don't have gender critical views may not wish to have to listen to anti-trans diatribes.

justafleshwound2024 · 22/05/2024 23:26

Cazpar · 22/05/2024 22:13

She isn't being lectured or harassed.

She went looking on this person's social media page and didn't like what she saw.

The visitor hasn't said anything to her.

She didn't "go looking ". The woman went looking for her so she followed her back.

She has at no point indicated even remotely she doesn't support everyone's human rights.

She is concerned with being lectured and harassed based on what she saw on SM.

Cazpar · 22/05/2024 22:13

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She isn't being lectured or harassed.

She went looking on this person's social media page and didn't like what she saw.

The visitor hasn't said anything to her.

justafleshwound2024 · 22/05/2024 21:50

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Christinapple · 22/05/2024 19:22

ChinaBlueBell · 21/05/2024 01:26

Letting them know? It’s the Op’s personal business. This is not 1984.

Then OP should make some excuse not to meet.

From the sounds of it, the visit will only end in tears.

justafleshwound2024 · 22/05/2024 02:45

BetsyBobbin · 22/05/2024 01:15

Riiiiight, I posted this late last night, replied once, went to bed, had a mega busy day today and only now I'm having a moment to myself to browse SM and whoaaa, it took me a while to catch up with all the posts. Some very amusing replies here and I'd like to thank all the suggestions, even though I won't be able to use some of them 😅

I can't reply to everyone individually but just wanted to clarify a few points for the PPs who got a little confused along the way and misinterpreted didn't read properly what I wrote:

I don't have a problem with gays or trans people. They can do whatever they want, just not at the expense of women's hard fought rights. The inclusion that they seek is excluding women from their own spaces.

I can't avoid her entirely because like I said, some outings have been organised and tickets bought for the whole group: me, DH, Friend, Friend's gay friends (3 of them). I don't dislike her and was actually looking forward to seeing her before I saw her SM and learned that she was going to stay with friends with whom she shares the same beliefs.

I'm not "spoiling for a fight". Quite the opposite, trying to avoid one. I don't intend to bring the issue up at all. I asked advice regarding what to do IF the issue was brought up as I find it hard to remain silent just smiling and nodding politely. There has to be a middle ground between full blown argument and staying quiet and putting up with nonsense.

My husband wholeheartedly agrees with me and shares my views.

I'm not wasting my time trying to convince someone who's been captured and if the issue is brought up in conversation I have decided that I might go to the loo or to the bar to buy a drink. HOWEVER, like a PP said it above, my red line is someone mentioning JK Rowling, my absolute shero 🙌🏼
Then I really won't be able to bite my lips and stay silent, I'll have to say something.

Thanks to everyone who understood me and gave me good suggestions, I really appreciate it 👍🏼

With respect, I simply wouldn't go, bookings or no bookings, group or no group. Anybody who lectures and prosleytises is exhausting. I'd assume she's going to try to lecture and scold and absolutely totally avoid her as she sounds like a source of conflict and anxiety and life is just too short. But each to their own, of course.

chilling19 · 22/05/2024 02:04

I would change my Facebook photo to a suffragette ribbon. The she will know where you stand before she gets to you and it may keep her off the topic.

BetsyBobbin · 22/05/2024 01:15

Riiiiight, I posted this late last night, replied once, went to bed, had a mega busy day today and only now I'm having a moment to myself to browse SM and whoaaa, it took me a while to catch up with all the posts. Some very amusing replies here and I'd like to thank all the suggestions, even though I won't be able to use some of them 😅

I can't reply to everyone individually but just wanted to clarify a few points for the PPs who got a little confused along the way and misinterpreted didn't read properly what I wrote:

I don't have a problem with gays or trans people. They can do whatever they want, just not at the expense of women's hard fought rights. The inclusion that they seek is excluding women from their own spaces.

I can't avoid her entirely because like I said, some outings have been organised and tickets bought for the whole group: me, DH, Friend, Friend's gay friends (3 of them). I don't dislike her and was actually looking forward to seeing her before I saw her SM and learned that she was going to stay with friends with whom she shares the same beliefs.

I'm not "spoiling for a fight". Quite the opposite, trying to avoid one. I don't intend to bring the issue up at all. I asked advice regarding what to do IF the issue was brought up as I find it hard to remain silent just smiling and nodding politely. There has to be a middle ground between full blown argument and staying quiet and putting up with nonsense.

My husband wholeheartedly agrees with me and shares my views.

I'm not wasting my time trying to convince someone who's been captured and if the issue is brought up in conversation I have decided that I might go to the loo or to the bar to buy a drink. HOWEVER, like a PP said it above, my red line is someone mentioning JK Rowling, my absolute shero 🙌🏼
Then I really won't be able to bite my lips and stay silent, I'll have to say something.

Thanks to everyone who understood me and gave me good suggestions, I really appreciate it 👍🏼

OP posts:
Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/05/2024 23:47

Just treat people - even those you strongly disagree with - as you'd wish to be treated.

You could even follow your own pious advice occasionally Cazpar, rather than rudely sneering at other women on Mumsnet because you personally disapprove of their approach to feminism. That's quite "shitty petty behaviour" (to quote you) too.

justafleshwound2024 · 21/05/2024 20:15

Cazpar · 21/05/2024 13:43

A number of directly copy-pasted quotes from various posters on this thread:

"I would be so tempted to leave my well worn copy of TRANS Gender Identity and the New Battle for Women’s Rights sitting on the arm of the sofa like this…..would that be too naughty?"

"I would wear my dinosaur necklace"

"I'd love to be able to look her in the eye and challenge her misogyny in a clear unemotional voice. So. I'd see it as practice."

"I think it is important to have as many conversations about this stuff as possible. It’s the only way to fix it."

"I'd probably just leave a JK Rowling novel lying on the table casually"

Versus:

"people like this love to sniff out "bigots" and "call them out""

"She'll cause disruption, cult mentality people always do."

"I'd have problems being in her company as the subject is bound to come up ( they can't keep their mouths shut )"

Yeah, it's only ever TRAs who try and crowbar the topic into conversation and who can't tolerate difference of opinion. Double standards abound.

Just treat people - even those you strongly disagree with - as you'd wish to be treated. In this case, not harangued for having the "wrong" view over a catch up with an old friend.

Advising to avoid cult prosleytisers is perfect advice designed to remove any potential drama.

Women humorously discussing ways to deflect or defend against a cult prosleytiser on a thread entirely about that subject is not the gotcha you think it is.

Ereshkigalangcleg · 21/05/2024 19:34

Amazing work @SoupChicken Wine

SoupChicken · 21/05/2024 19:32

with a colleague once who said TWAW and I just looked at him, snorted and said “of course they’re not, don’t be so daft” (this was before I knew what a big deal it all was) and he never brought it up again.

Like you say you won’t change anyone’s mind but you can let them know you’re not going to put up with any nonsense either.

Abhannmor · 21/05/2024 19:25

Betweenthe2 · 21/05/2024 09:10

She probably has a thread somewhere on reddit, dreading her weekend with her friend's wife who so captured by TERF ideology ...

And on Reddit she'll have 5k likes....

GeorgeOrwellsTurningGrave · 21/05/2024 18:10

"Tooling up"???? Ha ha ha, mate!

Some of the self righteous hyperbole is something to behold - but I think illustrates quite well that there are those who will see - and bad faith misinterpret - what they want to prop up their own ego.

Swipe left for the next trending thread