Biological sex

@fromtheshires

Most men with an ounce of decency or common sense would also not stand next to a small child and strip for fear of being branded a sex pest.

So the problem is getting caught?

Also, I know a few transmen. They don't pass. The internet is full of filters, lies and also, obviously, people with the money and support to transition as much as is physically possible. IRL teenagers cut their hair, wear hoodies and jeans, and that's the extent most of the time.

Most men with an ounce of decency or common sense would also not stand next to a small child and strip for fear of being branded a sex pest.

And therein lies the problem. A decent man who decided he'd like to be a woman would have the decency not to invade women's and girl's single sex spaces and strip in front of a small child. That just leaves the indecent men who want to be a woman and think it OK to use women only spaces, I don't think they have quite the same qualms about stripping off and making women and girls uncomfortable given they are already quite happy to transgress societal values and expectations.

it's up to men to decide if transmen are welcome in their toilets, not women.

This. From a safety POV they might feel fine. From a privacy and dignity POV they might not.

But I think what is interesting is that transmen offenders are very very rare and placed in the female estate. Transwomen offenders are common and normally want to be in the female estate. I think it's fairly obvious why. Male offenders, I'd imagine, would be quite pleased to welcome a transman into the male estate. And not because they're super woke.

I'd probably do surprised double take, then realise from a closer look, voice and movement, that they are actually female. If they're in the miniscule fraction of trans men who actually do pass, they can just explain if questioned.

There are single sex communal changing rooms in the pool closest to me, no cubicles available.

As transwomen are men, how do you keep out the ones that don't have the decency not to get their penis out in front of children? It's happened more than once, this isn't hypothetical. When people have complained that it's inappropriate they have been called bigots and transphobic. Women and girls have been told that they shouldn't look when a man gets his cock out in what should be a female only area.

Yeah that's the problem. Not all are decent. And now the ones who aren't have a fast pass into women's spaces just by saying words. I'm sure you can imagine where that can lead.

Can you explain what is anti trans about women wanting single sex spaces?

You started a thread claiming to want to understand (i.e. discuss in good faith), but you haven't really engaged with any of the questions, and just revert to calling us anti trans. I think your agenda is showing....

What if a trans woman, who looked remarkably like the trans man linked, walked into the changing room you were in and said "oh it's OK I'm a woman" would you believe them?

If not, you'd be labelled a transphobic bigot.

So you would see no problem with a couple of men following my 10 year old daughter into the local pool’s female changing room (communal, no cubicles) stripping off in front of her and for her to have to strip off in front of them?

What about risks to transmen using men's facilities? You do understand there's a reason transmen aren't put in men's prisons, I imagine?

@fromtheshires

Would you explain what you believe is the behaviour that is ‘anti—trans’ on MN please?

@fromtheshires

My stance on it is live and let live as long as you aren't hurting anyone

Perhaps as we've all answered your question you might indulge me in answering one of mine?

Why do you think separate toilet facilities exist? I promise it's not a "gotcha".

As PP have said, Instagram is not real life. Any of these people might 'pass', in a solo pic online. In a candid group photo? I don't think any of us have trouble telling who is which sex.

I just want to say it's very easy for MtF to look like they 'pass' in photographs on social media...like many things on Instagram they are likely highly edited, with certain poses etc. Men do not look like women in real life, so it's usually much easier to tell.

As for the OP, you're right, for FtM i.e. biological women who take testosterone, grow a beard, bind their breasts etc. it is much easier for them to 'pass' as a slight male. I have no issue with these women using female spaces, no matter how they choose to present.

I think it is a difficult issue as many of these young women would be uncomfortable using male spaces, and therefore may feel they 'stand out' in a female space. But I think you'll find most women are accommodating of biological women however they present, it's the biological males we don't want in our spaces.

@fromtheshires Whilst you are on the FWR board, have a look at the other threads - I recommend this one, in particular, the Sunday Post article. The issue is far from being all about toilets, not that you would know it from the criticism we receive from some quarters!

Holyrood summit hears from teens, parents and experts who claim children are pressured into swapping genders | Mumsnet

Transmen tend to pass better than transwomen.

As males, TW are the same threat to women as other males. As females, TM are the same threat to men as other females.

Some people say that transmen are female and so are welcome in female spaces. I disagree. TM are not a threat to men, and have taken steps (voluntarily) that means their presence in female only spaces has the potential to distress and alarm other women. As such, they should use the men’s or (if there is one) a unisex toilet (not the disabled!).

TW rarely “pass”, and even if they do they are no less a threat to women than other men, so should not be in female only spaces.

I think the filtered pictures used almost ubiquitously on Instagram are unlikely to give an accurate picture of how anyone appears in real life. Some of my (not trans) friends are all but unrecognisable in their own carefully chosen, posed and filtered images.

Sex is usually quite easy to observe.

That said, while I have no issue with transmen in women's spaces, it is possible that they may alarm women if they 'pass' as male.

What do you think, OP?

Perhaps transmen should be free to use male spaces. The issue is likely to be risk to the transmen, though.

Because no matter what someone's 'gender', sex still matters, and males are and remain a risk to females whereas females (statistically, in general) are not and will not ever be a risk to males, no matter how anyone's 'gender identity' changes.

99% of sexual assaults are carried out by males.
The sexes are not equal.