Biological sex

Can you give some examples of this anti trans hate that's all over Mumsnet? I read here often and I hardly see any anti trans posts. I see lots of pro women posts, and plenty of anti child medicalisation and sterilisation posts. I see many egs of women supporting other women they'll never meet: incarcerated women, disabled women, religious women, women who have been victims of sexual violence. I see posts which are pro safeguarding and others which are pro fairness in sports. But anti trans? Not so much.

Thank you for your self-reflection. It is unusual amongst the visitors to this board. I recommend the break it down thread - I hope someone links it for you.

Some men don't have an ounce of decency, though. Unfortunately, they don't have a tattoo on their foreheads announcing this.

Yes, a lot of people think Hayley Cropper when they think of transwomen. Unfortunately that's far from the reality. It's even considered transphobic to suggest that transwomen may have ANY dislike of their body.

Even female people with narrow hips have female Q angles meaning their gait is that of a female person not a male person.

No. It is a very common misunderstanding. 95% or more males declaring they are woman keep their penises. And by ‘surgery’ some of those people only get breast enhancements or facial feminisation.

The vast majority of 'trans women' retain their penises. Figures are sketchy, but some are listed here:

https://fairplayforwomen.com/penis/

Narrow-hipped transmen really? The hips have been the big giveaway for several of them in my experience. Apart from the height, and the way they inhabit their bodies. There's a reason osteoarchaeologists use the pelvis to give an indication of the sex of skeletons long after the soft tissue has gone.

So, I'm a bit confused - what is it about your views here that you think are different from the views of most 'gender critical' feminists on this board?

Isn’t it telling that the only risk OP perceives in this situation is to the men - that they may be accused of being sex pests. Not the risk to the girl that they might actually be sex offenders. Let alone any considerations of privacy or dignity.

Ok. But that doesn’t explain what you believe is anti-trans. Could you please give examples?

And if you think something is anti-trans, have you then considered fully whether what you consider anti-trans is women defining their rights and their needs based on sex that need to be prioritised over gender ?

I am sure there are trans men that pass.

Also I am sure some women don't twig as easily as others.

My experience of trans men is they are remarkably short men, all with the same slightly odd pattern of beard growth, narrow hips and apparently mandatory ear stretchers.

So again I will ask - what is 'anti trans' about wanting single sex spaces then? Since that is what we are advocating for here.

That by the way is enough to get us called transphobic bigots.

It's simple for me, not complex at all. Transmen who feel they pass as men, can make the individual decision to use the men's facilities. That's an individual choice and part of deciding to transition. Any risk is taken on by them only, and it doesn't affect women and women's facilities. If they feel they don't pass, then either mixed sex facilities or use the women's if they are still likely to be read as female. Any doubt, they should avoid using the women's facilities .

In any medical or prison setting or similar then it is appropriate for transmen to be treated as per their sex, for their safety and for appropriate treatment. In a medical ward setting, that's when individual side rooms would be appropriate for a passing transman.

Men and male people can therefore stay out of women's single sex facilities.

I wasn’t asking you about the pools you attend, they are irrelevant.

I was asking if it is ok for two men to follow my daughter into MY local pool’s female changing room which does not have cubicles.

So you think it is OK for them to expose themselves and watch her strip naked so long as they are standing ten feet away?

I don't like to think I'm being ungracious, it's just that of all the reasons to pick you chose that one.

Perhaps you could expand on the other reasons why men changing next to girls isn't appropriate?

So OP, because as you point out, some transmen do pass as muscled tattooed shortarsed men (as opposed to transwomen, where passing in the flesh is really very rare) what are YOU suggesting?

(As an aside, I'm always surprised that so called allies are happy to talk about the concept of passing. I think it is a horrifically cruel idea and something of an oppostunist lie that was sold to the original transexuals back in the day. No doubt chasing that dream has lined the pockets of many a surgeon.)

This.