Biological sex

Third spaces are the obvious solution in the meantime.

At present I'm imagining the best, most workable solution is 'third spaces' - for those that don't want to, or don't feel comfortable, using the facilities for their own sex.

On the subject of men who have had their genitals removed:

Sarah Jane Baker castrated himself while in prison. He claims to have then eaten his testes. After inciting a crowd to punch 'terfs', he was recalled to prison, as he is on a life sentence for kidnap, torture, and attempted murder.

https://www.spiked-online.com/2023/07/10/punch-a-terf-the-violent-misogyny-of-the-trans-movement/

I do not want to share a space with this man.

The thing is OP, many of us on this board are wary of people who rock up and seemingly pose innocent questions (I just want to understand etc.) - only to call us all horrible bigots and use screenshots on twitter/ reddit etc. 'proving' the transphobia that is supposedly rampant on MN. It's been done many many times, so you may get a frosty response initially until posters realise you are a genuine poster.

To all the posters who keep saying about the anti trans posts and prove it, as someone unaware of the high percentage of people who chose not to remove genitals i can assure you most of the posts looks transphobic.

I was the one asking about what you mean by anti trans, and I'm still interested in what you mean when you say that. I'm not trying to be goady, I'm not trying to annoy you - that terms is thrown around so much often without explanation or context, and sometimes even asking a question or having a genuine concern about something is considered transphobic.

JK Rowling is considered a horrible transphobic bigot - this is repeated in mainstream media often - and yet she has said nothing hateful at all, simply expressed a need for single sex spaces for women and that the legal category of woman be protected. That's why we have become wary of what exactly someone means' when they say transphobia, because often it is just saying something that the activists don't like or agree with (usually something factual).

As for removing genitals, it's not my business if a man removes his penis, it doesn't mean he's a woman. Why can't he be a gender non conforming man, which is essentially what he is. Why are trans rights activists and groups against third spaces, even though that seems like the fairest option for everyone? Also, how exactly would we police that, by checking people entering the toilets? that would never work.

Women are not just men without penises, we are not eunuchs. We need single sex spaces without ANY males, regardless of how those men feel about themselves, regardless of any plastic surgery they have had. Women fought hard to gain single sex public spaces and now they are under threat.

Another vote for third spaces. It really does solve these issues.
Of course, we know that many of the people that they are aimed out will choose to use toilets for the opposite sex, perhaps as validation or as voyeurs.

a law which states there must always be a unisex toilet provided, alongside a law which states single sex toilet use as a legal boundary, would be helpful for everyone imho.

Have posted this before. I'm an A&E doctor/urgent care GP. I meet a lot of people who got up that day, not expecting to need medical care (so they have dressed as usual), and I often have to ask them to take their clothes off. I have never, ever been surprised at someone's sex, when I do.

There are some TM who might pass when I first call them in from the waiting room but, after a couple of seconds talking to them - way before they get undressed - I know.

Also, if you have modified your body with drugs/surgery to the point where you get hassle in the women's toilet, that's on you. It's not my problem and it's not a reason to deny women single-sex spaces.

Most women will still read a man who has had genital surgery as a man, because his whole body shape (height, shoulder width, foot and hand size etc) will still look male.

An obviously male-bodied person in any situation where women feel vulnerable will make many if not most of those women feel wary, nervous or threatened.

There is not only the fear of sexual harassment or assault, there is also the factor of male aggression and male violence. Statistically, as a group transwomen are just as likely as any other males to behave aggressively or violently, hormone medicalisation and/or surgery notwithstanding

Serves me right for typing when distracted. Wide hips!!!

As others have said the hips don't lie.

"No one else's business what is in my pants"

"Why are TERFS obsessed with what is in someone's pants" etc
Distraction techniques. They don't want you to know that the vast majority of transwomen retain their dicks.

And as for (usually) Labour politicians claiming that some women have a penis... FYI, many on this board are left wing. Don't fall for the line that we are a bunch of hard-right fascists.

Filters.

Ok. However, you may or may not realise that the information that you are gathering is considered anti-trans. Hence my question. Because so much of what we discuss is considered anti-trans when it is material reality and the impacts of a conflict of where the demands of a minority groups conflict with the needs of women and girls- ie all female people.

So calling things anti-trans is either a misrepresentation of what is discussed or it is coming from a purely ideological belief or maybe even just someone repeating a term they have heard people they respect or look to for opinion use without realising it is actually very offensive to feminists to label them or their activities ‘anti-trans’.

And it is fucking offensive.

If you want information at your fingertips, may I suggest you visit this thread. From around half way through on, it has links galore that you might find interesting original source material. And we always recommend people read, read and read. And read original source to formulate your own opinions based on evidence.

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/womens_rights/3145470-Break-it-down-for-me?latest=0

If not of

I suppose the next logical question would be if they had genital surgery would it be an issue to anyone

A man is still a man even without a penis and balls.

As of life isn’t fucking complicated enough …

This is what the TRAs rely on. They want everyone to assume a transwoman is penisless and ballless because then they aren't assumed to be a risk, and how terrible it must be to hate your own body that much that you'd get you're penis chopped off/turned inside to create a hole that is permanently trying to close itself back up.

Once you know that most are still in fact fully intact men then the risk factor of that person in your head goes straight back up as you are sharing an women only space with a man who is fully capable of raping you if he so wished.

I've been witnessing a transman in transition for the last couple of years. I see them every now and again as they work in a shop by me. When stood behind the counter they are at the point that if you didn't know then you might (assuming you hadn't yet been for your latest eye appointment) think that they were a particularly weedy looking short bloke with patchy beard growth and a voice that sounded like they still hadn't hit male puberty.

When they are stood in an aisle filling the shelves and all you can see is the back view...

Those hips don't lie!

@fromtheshires I think the more we push this idea the more sense it makes. It means non-binary people have an option as do trans people. It means Transwomen can’t claim they need to use the women's as they are not safe in the men’s etc.

It will take time to achieve but there is no reason why this couldn’t be the way we chose to go.

India Willoughby deliberately ignored the close by, convenient gender neutral toilets and went off to the much further away ladies. India was so pleased with Indiaself that India posted it on Twitter.

Op I used to think all transwomen had removed their penises too (let's be honest, the insertion of silicone tits is neither here nor there).

I thought that because a) I'd only ever met actual transexuals before who had definitely had bottom surgery and b) I thought that hating one's sex so much would inevitably lead to removing the one thing that is absolutely and utterly of that sex.

It really rocked my world view when I realised that almost all transwomen keep their penises. Ultimately it's a good thing surely to have less surgery! But it does make the safeguarding question more pertinent.

People lie about us here all the time, making out that we are horrible bigots who do everything they can to make trans people's lives difficult. We are always happy to put our point forward and debate with people but far too often someone will start a thread to call us names and then just throw insults rather than trying to have a conversation.

@fromtheshires I believe we need third spaces. So male and female single sex toilets, changing rooms, prisons etc. plus a mixed sex/unisex/gender neutral option.

This option allows everyone dignity and privacy.

At the theatre I used a “gender neutral” toilet. It was the men’s rebadged. I know I was shocked to walk past men using the urinals and I’m fairly sure they were uncomfortable.

I agree, and also from the perspective of my own needs as a man. If a rare cubicle was taken up by a transman having a miscarriage, there might be no stinky cubicle available for the men who need it. If I was in urgent need, I might not be able to wait while I called for an ambulance and the creaking medical system did its stuff to help the unfortunate transman. IBS is nothing compared to a miscarriage, but it’s no joke.